Gajim - 2024-12-12

bodqhrohro: maybe you would like to thumb up https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/-/issues/11964

deport: playing democracy when we know jolly well the project is directed by two people, hehe?

Praise be to the Lords of Gajim.

Uh oh, Gajim might keep up with telegabber in version numbers soon, I have to do something ×DDDDDDD

> jstein, please try to install xdg-desktop-portal and a desktop-environment-specific backend suitable for your choice of UI, such as xdg-desktop-portal-gnome for GNOME Shell, xdg-desktop-portal-kde for KDE Plasma, or xdg-desktop-portal-gtk for environments that do not offer anything more specific. not again... so gajim is going to require running one of these daemons now to work too? WHY ↺

> 2024-12-12T03:20:08Z - moparisthebest: > not again... so gajim is going to require running one of these daemons now to work too? WHY Just so you could pick files everywhere in your native preferable way? I did even see a wrapper for some TUI FM (ranger?) for that. This is a long-standing issue which did even lead to GTK+ and Qt apps linking both (or rather only Qt apps linking GTK+, like if the GTK+ world ever respected the Qt world, hehe). ↺

idk what it's for, it's one of the reasons I came back to gajim from Dino, there you even had to run the daemon for clicking a link to open your browser -.-

Only started happening awhile after the gtk4 port

> 2024-12-12T03:24:58Z - moparisthebest: > idk what it's for, it's one of the reasons I came back to gajim from Dino, there you even had to run the daemon for clicking a link to open your browser -.- Pff, migrate to Tkabber now then. ↺

Might have to

> not again... so gajim is going to require running one of these daemons now to work too? WHY They aren't daemons, they are callled portals, and they are one of the best things that have happened to linux desktop so far ↺

Without them, a unified way to comunicate the desktop with sandboxed apps, for example, couldn't have been possible ✏

> 2024-12-12T03:28:53Z - Eduard T: > They aren't daemons, they are callled portals, and they are one of the best things that have happened to linux desktop so far They are, anything that runs in background is a daemon. ↺

Whatever, there aren't drawbacks but only gains from running them

I don't need or want that though, I've been happily using the Linux desktop for years, not sure why gnome suddenly wants to ruin it?

> I don't need or want that though, I've been happily using the Linux desktop for years, not sure why gnome suddenly wants to ruin it? Gnome? Literally every decent DE requires it, including plasma, xfce, gnome ↺

> 2024-12-12T03:29:36Z - Eduard T: > Without them, a unified way to comunicate the desktop with sandboxed apps, for example, couldn't have been possible Luddites don't need sandboxing, they would be just as happy to run one root user on their machines like in the good ol' MS-DOS era. ↺

And even some WM requires or recommend them

There certainly are drawbacks, like needing to install and run them and apps that didn't need them now needing them?

> There certainly are drawbacks, like needing to install and run them and apps that didn't need them now needing them? And the drawback is? ↺

Anyways, this is offtopic for this channel tho

Running a daemon to enable link clicking is a ridiculous concept

> 2024-12-12T03:30:51Z - Eduard T: > Gnome? Literally every decent DE requires it, including plasma, xfce, gnome Not everyone is supposed to use a DE. And constrasting WMs with DEs in incorrect because WM is a component of DE, and DE might be custom or inapplicable at all. It's possible to launch Gajim even on pure X.Org without any WM. ↺

If I wanted someone forcing me to run software I didn't want to run I'd use windows or macos, though I hear most gnome devs run macos so makes sense

> 2024-12-12T03:31:46Z - Eduard T: > Anyways, this is offtopic for this channel tho It's not offtopic as long as it's the issue with Gajim demanding portals. ↺

That's not an issue :p

I use leftwm nowadays, used to use i3, I have no need for gnome or kde or xfce

> 2024-12-12T03:31:08Z - moparisthebest: > There certainly are drawbacks, like needing to install and run them and apps that didn't need them now needing them? Welp, how well do Gtk apps live on Windows nowadays without the dbus-daemon? :P ↺

Using something that provides uniform access to features independent of desktops and toolkits (called portals) isn't bad at all

When OOM killer chooses the user instance of dbus-daemon, it's a huge problem. Almost all GUI apps die but Ripcord, Viber and few others, which don't respect the fd.o fads. ✏

And it's tedious for me to revive them because I didn't automate it yet :P

That's why having tools that unify these behaviors is a good thing

> 2024-12-12T03:32:48Z - moparisthebest: > If I wanted someone forcing me to run software I didn't want to run I'd use windows or macos, though I hear most gnome devs run macos so makes sense Do you realize the price for avoiding to be forced is "patches are welcome"? :P ↺

> Using something that provides uniform access to features independent of desktops and toolkits (called portals) isn't bad at all You keep saying uniform but they all run their own and are incompatible, that's the basic problem with Wayland ↺

> 2024-12-12T03:36:15Z - moparisthebest: > You keep saying uniform but they all run their own and are incompatible, that's the basic problem with Wayland Have you seen EWMH-incompatible X11 WMs, didn't you? ↺

I don't want a degraded experience because someone else wants to sandbox proprietary apps on their machine, the end. Ridiculous premise

> You keep saying uniform but they all run their own and are incompatible, that's the basic problem with Wayland Only on some very-specific things, but the base is compatible on all of them ↺

> I don't want a degraded experience because someone else wants to sandbox proprietary apps on their machine, the end. Ridiculous premise You know that not only propietary apps should be sandboxed, right? :p ↺

The idea is to get some decent security on Linux desktop, which we have been lacking since a very long time now

> 2024-12-12T03:38:48Z - Eduard T: > The idea is to get some decent security on Linux desktop, which we have been lacking since a very long time now Security in FOSS is achieved by public code audit and audit by distribution maintainers who are responsible for the builds they share. Untrusting and sandboxing FOSS apps ruins the idea of FOSS significantly. Ideally, the user should be aware of all the code ran by the computer (and thus "FOSS" monsters like Chromium with the enormous amount of unnecessary code are just unacceptable). ↺

Trusting is always bad, that's it

In the ideal world where RMS would be happy to live, no proprietary blobs need to be run at all, including proprietary blobs ran and sandboxed by FOSS, period. And we should always keep approaching this ideal, because the opposing force is also not dormant.

Just see how the DRM technologies are reviving again after their boom and fail around Y2K.

Oh no, RMS, the pedo

Got it, I'm not discussing more

We've had firejail for over a decade if you wanted to sandbox things, I don't need my WM, package manager, or UI toolkit involved

moparisthebest: how is it related to either though?

It's just the UNIX way, in the best tradition of KISS, microservices and Hurd.

Stuffing a whole file picker into the app is definitely unhealthy.

My impression is that gnome justifies the "need daemon for link clicking" nonsense with "well we think we need it for Wayland and flatpak" and I don't care or want

moparisthebest: why GNOME all of sudden? gnome-shell is a brilliant example of a monolith monster (which wasn't the case for GNOME 2 and isn't for MATE), and separating the portal daemon from it is a good step back to modularity.

C'mon, they did even drop Mutter as a separate executable long ago, while KWin is still a distinct process.

I could not even notice until I figured out that `/usr/bin/mutter` is now some test stub like rootston. ✏

Gnome is the one pushing flatpak and Wayland and ruining gtk right?

If gnome wants to ruin gnome that's their business, ruining gtk is a step too far, it used to be a great cross platform toolkit, now it only works on gnome and kde I guess? What a leap backwards for the Linux desktop

moparisthebest: it would be an oversimplification. GNOME and Flatpak teams significantly overlap indeed, and it's rather the Flatpak folks pushing portals indeed.

> ruining gtk is a step too far, it used to be a great cross platform toolkit There were lots of parties who could theoretically fork GTK+2 when GTK+3 became the toy of insane gnomers. But almost all of them forfeited and decided just to follow this mess. Enjoy this, and blame only yourself for not acting enough.

Whining from a consumerist perspective is totally counterproductive.

The developers of MATE, STLWRT, gtk3-mushrooms and gtk3-nocsd are the most respectful for that matter, as they do at least something instead of just whining "oh noez what goomers did again with mah linux, just please don't touch my FVWM configuration for 50 years more, okay?"

I don't think I'm whining, I'm asking if gajim really wants to migrate to a system that requires running a daemon to click links, or if there is an alternative

Lol @ 50 years though, I did mention I use leftwm which is brand new as far as WMs go

I don't even understand your complaint because I find this concept of "just opening links" or "just opening files" windozish as heck.

I'd rather have it broken (and I do) just so I won't open something accidentally.

There are executables and files are passed as their CLI arguments at best. Removing the explicit executable from this approach is disorienting. Even on Windows I did have a panel in Total Commander with numerous apps which I dragged files onto, depending on what do I intend to do with them.

And moreover, "extensions" are a lie, you're free to interpret digital data in a whatever way.

> I don't even understand your complaint because I find this concept of "just opening links" or "just opening files" windozish as heck. Not sure what you mean, when I'm in an xmpp chat and someone sends a link I want to click it and have it open in Firefox, is that unreasonable or strange? ↺

> 2024-12-12T04:36:52Z - moparisthebest: > Not sure what you mean, when I'm in an xmpp chat and someone sends a link I want to click it and have it open in Firefox, is that unreasonable or strange? Yes. Firefox is bloatware. Especially on low-end machines, I prefer to open image links with something like feh, for example. And for non-direct links, I wrote scripts to extract direct links. ↺

Auto-detecting that would be cumbersome generally.

Ok, I don't get what that has to do with gtk4 being the only UI toolkit that can't open my preferred application when I click a link

It's been a solved problem for decades

Even infosec courses for normies explicitly tell that "just opening" links that someone has sent is a dangerous idea.

I don't mean automatically...

Hackers nowadays use social engineering way more than hunting for actual breaches.

> 2024-12-12T04:37:48Z - bodqhrohro: > Yes. Firefox is bloatware. Especially on low-end machines, I prefer to open image links with something like feh, for example. And for non-direct links, I wrote scripts to extract direct links. Oh, and YouTube links in mpv. And various others vidya hostings. I quit opening them in a browser wherever possible long ago. ↺

> 2024-12-12T04:39:52Z - bodqhrohro: > Hackers nowadays use social engineering way more than hunting for actual breaches. Still they might lure you into a page with an exploit this way. Especially if they know you're a luddite with certain outdated software. ↺

If it's well-targeted enough, others in the same chat might not even notice, and think the attacker shared something legitimate.

What are you talking about

Hackers! Hackers everywhere! And friendship makes it all complete! wha-huh-huh! ack!

Clicking links works everywhere as the user has it configured, except gtk4 apps like Dino, I'm just asking if it's possible for gajim not to also break this, that's all

moparisthebest: just admit you're lazy to configure some xdg-portal implementation because you've got senile and want to have it cast in stone lol.

Why would you even upgrade things if you're not ready to this? I don't when I'm busy or dismotivated kek.

Just look, it's 0.5 KLOC, what do you even complain about? https://github.com/GermainZ/xdg-desktop-portal-termfilechooser/blob/main/src/filechooser/filechooser.c

Did I suddenly become a goomer as I resort to walls of text to explain to people why their problem ain't a problem lol?..

"lets check in on the Gajim MUC, maybe they will have some constructive criticism of the app"

never again

this conversation went on for over an hour about one of the most non-issue issues out there

like sure, maybe you want it or maybe you dont. in any world the chances of this being a problem are next to zero

> 2024-12-12T04:45:45Z - bodqhrohro: > Hackers! Hackers everywhere! And friendship makes it all complete! wha-huh-huh! ack! Heck, why did you make me recall about MLP - CIM, it won't work in Wine lol. ↺

It's a problem when a basic feature is broken

moparisthebest: XHTML was a "basic feature" for someone too, now what.

It... Still works fine? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

bodqhrohro, moparisthebest: next time please keep the discussion on topic, that is Gajim. If you want to discuss gnome, please use any gnome or generic channel. Gajim uses gtk, and that will not change. It's now gtk4 with the next release, not gtk3 anymore.

cal0pteryx: using Gtk4 does not obligate Gajim to use the file chooser implementation provided by Gtk4. So this is still a Gajim issue.

> cal0pteryx: using Gtk4 does not obligate Gajim to use the file chooser implementation provided by Gtk4. So this is still a Gajim issue. Looks like a single message would have been enough at the end.

One-line bugfix is months of research sometimes.

bodqhrohro, grepping the code, it already uses Gtk.FileDialog so it will use the dialog the user configured in their portal already, or the fallback built in GTK if that one is unavailable.

(And the native one in Windows, macOS and Android of course.)

bodqhrohro: we always used gtk file chooser impl.

> Ok, I don't get what that has to do with gtk4 being the only UI toolkit that can't open my preferred application when I click a link moparisthebest: check if `gio mime text/html` points to the right application, the same for x-scheme-handler/http and x-scheme-handler/https

lovetox: times change.

Yes that's why you maybe have to install a portal 😄

Portals ain't installed, portals are opened.

And also closed.

What happens when you're in the midst of a portal and it closes?

It's not like a tram door so you would just ride with your back outside.

I know jolly well what happens when dbus-daemon crashes. Including with Gajim. That's unacceptable. Gajim process should withstand that.

bodqhrohro: you'll have to adapt with the framework gajim uses. Or stop using gajim. But complaining here won't change anything.

cal0pteryx: the framework is not an excuse. Why Gajim has lots of custom widgets nowadays then?

bodqhrohro: I won't engage in your discussion. You've been warned numerous times in the past.

better to fix the application that causes a dbus-daemon crash

hannibal: the kernel?

Or the dbus-daemon itself which might eat lots of RAM suddenly? (yeah, it's not its fault, it's those who feed it with unprocessed messages)

When the system is really overloaded, there are no viable means to resurrect it but Alt+SysRq+F. And it's on the kernel's will, based on OOM scores, who is the victim. It likes chromium processes, it likes pipewire, and also it likes dbus-daemon very much. IDK why. ✏

Hi, is there any way to manage Personnal eventing protocol (PEP, XEP-0163) un gajim 1.7.3? I experienced some error messages "message was not encrypted for this device" and it would help to reset it. Thanks

fil: you'll have to make sure that the device you're seeing the error message on is known to the device which sent the message.

it is

is was just sent while my clients (Gajim and Conversations) were disconnected

cal0pteryx

fil: sorry I can't help with that. lovetox ? This should really be a wiki entry

thank you anyway for trying :)

> 2024-12-12T10:18:27Z - bodqhrohro: > When the system is really overloaded, there are no viable means to resurrect it but Alt+SysRq+F. And it's on the kernel's will, based on OOM scores, who is the victim. It likes chromium processes, it likes pipewire, and also it likes dbus-daemon very much. IDK why. Y'know what? `/lib/systemd/system/dbus.service` has `OOMScoreAdjust=-900`. Even though: ``` root@localhost:~# ps aux|grep dbus-daemon|grep bodqhro bodqhro+ 1669133 0.0 0.0 10284 5564 ? Ss Dec11 0:02 /usr/bin/dbus-daemon --session --address=systemd: --nofork --nopidfile --systemd-activation --syslog-only bodqhro+ 1672493 0.0 0.0 9396 4968 ? S Dec11 0:01 /usr/bin/dbus-daemon --config-file=/usr/share/defaults/at-spi2/accessibility.conf --nofork --print-address 10 --address=unix:path=/run/user/1000/at-spi/bus_0 bodqhro+ 1973292 0.0 0.0 9400 2332 ? Ss 06:13 0:00 /usr/bin/dbus-daemon --syslog-only --fork --print-pid 5 --print-address 7 --session root@localhost:~# cat /proc/1669133/oom_score_adj 200 root@localhost:~# cat /proc/1672493/oom_score_adj 200 root@localhost:~# cat /proc/1973292/oom_score_adj 0 ``` Worth investigating definitely. ↺

bodqhrohro, I don’t know if this would change anything for you, but my distribution switched to dbus-broker and it’s probably for a reason.

Wow.

There is also busd but I haven’t tested it yet.

bodqhrohro: last warning, this belongs to a gtk chat, not gajim

cal0pteryx: DBus is not even part of GTK+ lol.

any chance to get faster chat switching?

switching between rooms has a noticeable delay of 1-2 seconds

mrdoctorwho, have you tried it with the user list being hidden?

mesonium, seems to be faster, but still on the slow side

This is most likely due to word wrapping in the chat. I notice performance issues if there are long messages.

We've implemented some measures against that recently. That should make it better already

> bodqhrohro: last warning, this belongs to a gtk chat, not gajim I was going to complain about heavy handed moderation. Then I noticed Dino channel has been locked down for almost a week. :) ↺

opinionplatform.org_3: for the record: this user has a history of ignoring warnings, engaging in offtopic discussions, etc. This has been going on and off for over a year. At some point you have to moderate

cal0pteryx: I saw a few to several others involved in the latest discussion.

All of which have no negative history

"Negative"

>> bodqhrohro: last warning, this belongs to a gtk chat, not gajim > I was going to complain about heavy handed moderation. Then I noticed Dino channel has been locked down for almost a week. :) Who was the bad boy? 😅🥳

lovetox: Hi, I sent back in case you had an idea: > Hi, is there any way to manage Personnal eventing protocol (PEP, XEP-0163) un gajim 1.7.3? I experienced some error messages "message was not encrypted for this device" and it would help to reset it. Thanks > The message It was just sent while my clients (Gajim and Conversations) were disconnected

on what device do you see that message

lovetox: On Conversations, but i see a similar message on Gajim

The click the shield and check if you see the conversations fingerprint

Yes. When my clients are connected, i do not have any issue receiving messages. It only occurs while a client is disconnected.

(and yes shiield of this contact is green)

si I would like to reset PEP but I do not find how to do this un 1.7.3, do you know how to do this?

fil, thats a very weird problem that it works when the devices are online

before you reset anything we should analyse whats going on

ok

please let me know if I can give you any insight :)

my contact use monal

it seems to occure also with other monal clients

when you send a message to your contact

do you see this message on all of your own devices ✏

yes

I can ask for this contact to make a few tests if needed

look there are 2 directions You -> Contact and Contact -> You

im asking if You send a message do you see that message on *your* own other devices

indeed, and I confirm I see the message I send to my contact on my own other devices

(i just said i can also make some tests with the help of my contact in the other way if needed) ✏

but then the problem is not on Gajim sides, it works in the way that the sending device queries the server and asks what devices are available, and then it needs to encrypt for all of them, and not just for some that are online

my guess is its a monal bug, you can verify this simply by asking a contact that does not use monal to send you a message while your device is offline

if it works, its a big hint that this is a monal bug

I would like to test a reset of PEP to check if it could solve my issue

how could I do this with 1.7.3 ?

there is no such thing

and you should not play with things you dont understand

as i said, you can easily test if everything works as it should

message a contact not using monal

in fact I was suggested to do so by a member of the xmpp foundation

since even if this is a monam bug, it could be due to some mismatch in the pep management

this is why I would like to test this solution

i told you there is no such thing as reset pep

but it is available in 1.9, isn't it ?

i never heard of "reset pep"

there is no such functionality in any client i know

maybe go back to the person that told you and ask them how to do it

but dont come back here, if afterwards nothing works anymore

in account > manage account > JID > encryption

it allows do delete all devices to force them to declare themself again

perhaps I misspelled the english name, sorry if that's the case

would that make more sense said with those "instructions"?

I mean I understand that the issue is not from gajim, in fact, the advanced config functionnalities would perhaps help me solving this monal behaviour, and it would help me (monal is the less worse solution for iOS phone users, since my experience of siskin is worse)

you can hit the clear device button, but all your devices should be online if you do this

oh, ok, thank you for this precision, I'll be sure they will be then

do you know if this functionnality is available on 1.7.3 version?

yes, you need to go to the plugins dialog

select the omemo plugin

in the top right there is a preference button

and it should be then in the dialog that opens

great, thnak you very much lovetox

so I'll check that my devices are both online to do this

Hi there. First of all, thank you to everyone involved in this software. It's a solid experience. We are testing XMPP as a self hosted, encrypted alternative to Telegram as our work group chat. So far so good. We need "Send Later" functionality, and found some mobile clients have this. I wonder, does Gajim on desktop have this capability?

I also wonder, does Gajim have the ability to have our own chat bubble on the right, and everyone else on the left, like a more traditional chat layout? I just can't seem to find a setting on this. Thank you so much

hi Rob, i have to answer both with a No

although the first request would be definitily be considered as a feature request

as for the second, we draw the nickname in a different color than the rest of the participants ✏

OK thank you for the answer, I do appreciate it.

> although the first request would be definitily be considered as a feature request Just as an insight. There is a law that does not allow for employers to hassle employees after hours (great law). However, sometimes someone might think "Oh, I need to tell employee X, imporant info on topic Y". So, by sending later, we can get the idea out of our heads, and schedule the message for business hours the next day. It's been an invaluable part of the workflow for all of us. I hope that helps provide reasoning, and our use case.