Gajim - 2023-10-26

I need help

true

Just want to suggest something about usability: the average user doesn't know what "workspace" is or does. When he sees the big pencil button he will generally expect to stand for *write* (because it's a pencil) a message, not edit "workspace" (which again he has no idea what it even is)

Yeah i still have no idea what the point of it is instead of just having contacts

I like the workspaces tbh

would b nice to be able to hide them tho

but whats the point of it? what does it do?

folder

A folder for a chat program?

yee

I'd u have multiple accounts

or different types of conversations

I guess that works for redundancy

ye

> Just want to suggest something about usability: the average user doesn't know what "workspace" is or does. When he sees the big pencil button he will generally expect to stand for *write* (because it's a pencil) a message, not edit "workspace" (which again he has no idea what it even is) I have said the same. The pencil icon makes me think of writing. I think it might be a good idea to use more intuitive icons. Do we have a standard set of icons that we pick from? I know the wiki links to a few.

where is the pencil icon

pencil means edit, in many applications

can u end screenshot?

lovetox: can you give examples?

type edit icon into google

when I think of applications I have used where I can pick a picture, it usually has an icon like a camera or a simplified landscape

there a row full of pencils

https://www.flaticon.com/free-icons/edit

😩

I agree with fjklp on it being a camera or something

idk what icon ur talking about

the pencil for that is odd

but it's not an "edit" button that 95% of users will ever want to press..

screenshotttt

😩😩😩

why r we talking about ui when there's no visual example

chud, dont know what you are getting at, moving the button to somewhere else, is entirley a different discussion from "icon ist not correct"

> screenshotttt I'm pretty sure everything that can be edited in gajim settings has the same icon, look around

I literally

have no idea

what ur talking about

at all

umu: find one thing that can be edited that does not have a pencil icon

lioe

like

and.edited message?

> chud, dont know what you are getting at, moving the button to somewhere else, is entirley a different discussion from "icon ist not correct" my point is "icon is confusing and makes you think it's the write new message button". ↺

what does this have to do with groups

groupchat details > manage

umu can you try to write more than one word into your messages, its really annoying if you spam the channel

top right

I'm on my phone right now

and? on the phone you need to hit send after every word?

no I'm saying because I want to see the giant pencil icon

but I cannot reproduce it on my end

what do you want to reproduce?

what they're talking about

the big pencil

umu: change your avatar, it has pencil icon

https://walla.rneetup.com:5281/file_share/9d03cb6a-03c3-48f2-a0a4-4d4ae563b9ec/Q5Ndz28tQHGG1W3q4S_rTw.jpg

no it doesnt

obviously we are talking about gajim

yeah but I just said I'm on my phone

ok umu, then it seems you can not take part in the discussion

how can you discuss a ui issue without a screenshot as context?

for gtk icons how many states are there depending on the themes?

stop wasting our time with irrelevant discussions

okay, I guess I hit a nerve with my tone I guess I'll back off a bit for now

sorry if I offended you

its not the tone, as i said try to put more stuff into your message, i just counted, you wrote 25 messages, since we started talking about the pencil account, and all of that was "please send me screenshots because i want to also talk about it"

one single message asking for a screenshot would have been enough, and if no one takes the time to send one, take the hint

That's just how phone users write in the current day and age.

chud: we've seen that issue multiple times now, and I think swapping that icon with a cog symbol or something like that may be a good thing.

oh, that pencil icon. I think we could actually just remove that icon. When I think to edit my workspace, I think of the workspace icon itself, such as right clicking on it directly. However, I haven't really been using workspaces. ✏

oh, that pencil icon. I think we could actually just remove that icon. When I think to edit my workspace, I think of the workspace icon itself, such as right clicking on it directly to edit, and we can already do that. However, I haven't really been using workspaces. ✏

Is there any reason to keep it?

>That's just how phone users write in the current day and age. not in this case chud, the user in question is someone who has been trolling not only xmpp but other platforms for years, and all he does is shit up every place he's in

>Is there any reason to keep it? i agree changing it to a settings cogwheel would make more sense

a pencil suggests to me "rename"

(which, in this case i guess that's its main purpose)

rename or edit, rather

>such as right clicking on it directly to edit, mobile/touchscreen ui design considerations may disagree, if that's any bit relevant ✏

opal: Gajim is afaik thought of as a desktop client, it's not (yet) even convergent

with projects such as pmOS as well as the availability of tablets and tablet-notebook hybrids, i still see it a valid concern

the question of relevance comes in more when considering whether workspaces make sense on smaller displays in the first place

Housemate was using Gajim<1.4 on a Pinephone, was total dog shit

ha

Not all on Gajim tho, the Pinephone was mostly already complete dog shit

unfortunately, yeah... i hope to change that fate but i need a *lot* of time to invest into something like thatt

Please watch your language in this chat. Being hostile or using profanity does not help a healthy discussion :)

whats hostile about what agh said

Oh another PG-13 save the children from the pedos chat room?

Gajim was never intended for mobile use and it doesn't have any optimization for it

opal: you were being hostile

where?

agh: what's that supposed to mean?

opal: against umu.

> whats hostile about what agh said There was nothing hostile about it. Some people just have a narrow, or conservative understanding of how words, vernaculure and what not influence and evolve language locales. ↺

what, because i'm familiar with trolls? cal0pteryx while we're at it, has veronica been dealt with? neither you nor lovetox engaged with me privately about the matter even though veronica came out with much more vicious behaviour than i ever have in here

please enforce your rules consistently, thank you

for that matter i have both of them blocked because i know they're nothing more than trolls

but if you dont want to believe me, thats on you, just dont come to me telling me what to do, thanks very much

> opal: against umu. Umm, care to read the history again, and speculate on who was being rude to umu? ↺

cal0pteryx, i have a much broader tolerance of behaviour for people online, so if i say someone is a problem, i'm most likely not crying wolf.

i'm not a karen about this, believe me

No, the Karens are endorsing the PG-13'ification of the Internet, to protect the children, obviously

I'm reading this chat myself, there is no need to tell me who I should or shouldn't ban

this is why i instructed a few days prior for you all to do your jobs as moderators here if youre gonna bring up these problems in the first place (since that leads me to believe you want to enforce certain policies here), or have another moderator who can better handle this, or just leave it alone

agh: PG-13 hasn't anything to do with a healthy discussion

there is a need to tell you that veronica has called me a nigger in whispers and for you to take that into consideration

this isnt a healthy discussion if youre gonna be stubborn about it just because you happen to "read this chat"

i understand this is a volunteer effort, blah-blah, not getting onto you for that, but instead its your hypocrisy and ignorance that bothers me

i dont like backseat moderating either but im giving you a very juicy bone on who i know to be troublemakers

dont take that lightly

> agh: PG-13 hasn't anything to do with a healthy discussion Wait, censorship is healthly! Ignorance is strength! ↺

opal: do you want to be part of a healthy discussion or not? I can only moderate what I see, and I don't see your PMs with other participants in here

because it affects my (and others' im sure) ability to tolerate being in here, when im here for ontopic

cal0pteryx, i sent you and lovetox screenshots and i assume they passed through the same server that all other messages pass through, and in theory those can be read/recalled especially with mam

so, do you want to step down as moderator in here, or instead clarify what you enforce? because i think that's important right now

lol

opal, what you makes you think you are talking to rational adult agents?

your warnings to either of those users have had no effect

agh: engaging personally helps a healthy discussion?

agh's question to me is fair, i replied to them directly. and i dont discredit your overall rationality, but it does seem to be faulty in this case

please address that instead of deflecting so we can all just move on from this horse shit

i think i gave all venues of resolving this problem, pick one and i'll be happy with it, but i want a clear answer

hounding me for saying "fuck" and "shit" while others are getting away with constant/intermittent blatant trolling in here is not okay and sets a clear double standard

these certain people actively detract from xmpp as a platform, and i can safely say that because i dont jump to conclusions about people

but if youre okay with them in here, say so, and stop bitching at me. again, thanks

and dont get mad at me if i stand my ground against harassers if you have a hands-off policy about it

these trolls genuinely think nothing of the internet other than "words on a screen" and theyre entirely emotionally disconnected from the bull they type that ends up on other people's screens

cal0pteryx, i understand if youre busy right now but the above is all for you and this time i am not going to let you silently drop this and have it slide up the muc history like you have the past numerous times ✏

this disconnect in understanding what the muc is for, is causing a long-standing derailment that will only continue if it's ignored

Aedil, PMR: > when I think of applications I have used where I can pick a picture, it usually has an icon like a camera or a simplified landscape If we talk about editing workplaces, we could use a folder icon.

opal: Well, if it occurs again, I'll have your concerns in mind, you made your point clear.

cal0pteryx, good enough :) thanks

...a folder icon might be more ambiguous?

does this mean i want to open a file? that's my first impression

opal: yea, you are right.

Remove the icon. Make it cleaner.p

make it a blank button then we all can guess :D

opal: i dont care what someone whispers you, and i will not engage like a parent with childs in a "you said this, he/she said this" kind of situation.

the guideline is here, this is a support chat, and if someone disrupts it, we will warn them

further only because you say someone is a "troll" does not mean we think the same

fyi, i dont see any trolling behavior by umu, till now

>i dont care what someone whispers you the only reason i care is because blocking a jid resource does not quit those whispers, and it is your decision to anonymise jids in here, lovetox

thats why i put your name in my mouth for that, i hope you understand

Yeah i see that Gajim should offer better capabilities in blocking people in MUCs

>fyi, i dont see any trolling behavior by umu, till now few months back too but it was subtler and it prompted me to block their resource here

i do my best to ignore people rather than reporting them but i cant self-moderate it all

>Gajim seems like a server-side thing in this case

unless im missing something in the blocking xep

……

hi mike

> Yeah i see that Gajim should offer better capabilities in blocking people in MUCs So that is doable within the XMPP platform, regardless of clients? ↺

there is no XEP for it, and its a not really hard task to handle client side

we just need to add it

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0191.html ?

clear as day to me lol

you mean the actual blocking itself is clientside?

if so, i see what you mean

this XEP is not for a MUC, and it has bad drawbacks if used in a MUC

thats why nobody does it

ah

thanks for the clarification then :)

its also weird if you see people talking and dont get the contxt, because they talk to people you blocked

so some form of making it clear that a user talks which you blocked would seem useful

blocking in a muc itself seems not necessary

blocking private messages seems a nice feature

or rather blocking in a muc itself has drawbacks, not sure if they are worth it

i know that the case of blocking in a muc can be taken both ways, but personally i use it to get rid of someone's existence locally, so i dont care as much about breaking the flow of conversation in those cases. but yeah for PMs it's 100% reasonable always to block it because otherwise it spawns a new context that the user has to go out of their way to close

I would like the option to block in a muc. A simple case is for each message from blocked participant to display a dark shaded message like "message from blocked user"

thats what discord also does

(and i think it's made into a sort of button to expand that message if you wish? idr)

fjklp, if that message is to match the tombstones for redacted/deleted (well, "moderated") messages, then i think it'd make even more sense to condense that message down further into one line so it looks like a status update or somesuch

that way at least it isnt visually spammy when theres a long discussion between a blocked user and someone else

i could see why that wouldnt be desired though, technically these are still message events, so displaying them as special messages makes sense ✏

i could see why that wouldnt be desired though, technically these are still message events, so displaying them as special messages makes sense as well (ugh got distracted irl writing this) ✏

In newer verions of Gajim can you select 'the maximum file size for preview generation' to something lower then 256Kb? I mean, disabling it.

https://xmpp.volatile.bz:5281/upload/c75xoZzBvtiU3qqpZTMmUKHJ/231026.123840.png

first choice in that dropdown

Thank you, opal.

pardon my screenshot's choice of language

In my version of Gajim, if I want to send someone a pm, I have to open the *participants list*, search his name in there and then send pm. Still like that in newer ones?

opal: not sure how asking for a screenshot is a troll

just adding that not going to derail this discussion anymore

umu, opal, please don't discuss about what it is or not a troll, please.

dryan: yes though I want to add a action in the context menu when clicking on the Avatar

lovetox, ok. Or middle click to pm.

middle-clicking isnt used elsewhere in gajim's interface so maybe that's unintuitive

- lovetox, If the context menu it is opened by left click on the avatar, and then asks you to select either 'pm' or 'mention', then it is all right. - If you open that context menu with right click, then it a bit of a hidden option. You have to be lucky to find out about it. - I like left click for 'mention'. Right click could be for pm or 'quote his entire text block'. - The pm could also appear on the menu for 'quote and copy'. Even the' 'mention' action could be in there. But I would not mix these together. I like the menu for 'quote' and 'copy' to only be for that. - I don't think it is a priority.

context menus are common in desktop applications especially in the modern era where we all have three-button mice at worst

https://share.conversations.im/dryan89/f4Rq1jTGZCTnq9hZ/Screenshot_from_2023-10-26_13-33-41.png

^^^ I like this

https://share.conversations.im/dryan89/LO1nXKTCJ5JkGVTq/Screenshot_from_2023-10-26_13-34-30.png

^^^ better then this

i set all my names to pink on my end

opal: to many colors. Whatsapp or Sigal or whatever, are visual appealing because only use8 2 or 3 colors with different intensities and bold and so on. That's what I have tried to achive.

yeah it looks alright

reason i say pink is my main system colour scheme uses pink as a highlight

Aaa.. Well. It is good cuz it is customizable. But Gajim uses way to many colors and makes it look unattractive. - We have *green* and *yellow* as icon. I think it should be *green* and *white*. - Then we have an ugly blue for menu selection and my name and url and others. The green and that blue does not fit. - Then we have orange for messages we are mentiond on. - Then red for other guys chat. - Then we have pink for workspaces. - Green for online accounts.

And white for text.

https://share.conversations.im/dryan89/2cg6WZDbiqm8jPEn/Screenshot_from_2023-10-26_14-06-53.png

^^^ made the color of my name, the same green as the online color.

i'm sensitive to colour usage too; in my environment i generally take blue to mean "selection", pink as an accent, red as "urgent", yellow as a highlight, then grey/black elsewhere

the only thing that holds us up from a new release currently is, that im not satisified with the new irc icon

it does not work for dark mode

opal, I still thing there are to many colours. I have changed even the dvtm to have less colours so it looks more modern, more minimal.

https://share.conversations.im/dryan89/28RzK2OAjgOCkaXQ/Screenshot_from_2023-10-26_14-41-11.png

https://share.conversations.im/dryan89/sGtYkxuIEU9ZzT1c/ss_2023-10-26-143543.jpg

^^^ this was the original

> the only thing that holds us up from a new release currently is, that im not satisified with the new irc icon lovetox, :)) that's good.

dvtm, nice

so basically you prefer monochrome whereas i prefer a bit of colour but overall consistency, from what i can tell

(my terminals match my gtk/qt theme)

https://share.conversations.im/dryan89/Bk59n7GO4EVqgh2M/ss_2023-10-26-144917.jpg

^^^ I liked how the older version organized chats by groups and contacts. I the newer verison, I pin the contacts so I can have some similar thing. Can't that still be done even with workplaces? lovetox

of course you can sort all groupchats into a workspace

no need to pin something

Yea. But it gets a pain in the ass if you have multiple accounts. And you have to do 2 workspaces for each account. The pin method works just fine for what I need, lovetox.

It is very hard to think a good UI.

I know you can sort accounts by color, but it is way to confusing for me. I think you have done great work with what it is right now. Dino I feel it have a good ui, but I didn't check how it is in multiple accounts. I otherwise prefer minimal and more efficient then bloated with animations and way to many futures. *One thing* that will be nice lovetox, would be to be able to change that blue color that is default for selecting menus, and other things.

sorry for my bad english. I need a break.

dino mixes chats from all of your your accounts around in the chat list, if that bothers you

also its still impossible to hide that pane except in mobile mode i think

assuming they mainlined mobile branch, idr

> dryan a écrit : > I know you can sort accounts by color, but it is way to confusing for me. I think you have done great work with what it is right now. > Dino I feel it have a good ui, but I didn't check how it is in multiple accounts. I otherwise prefer minimal and more efficient then bloated with animations and way to many futures. > *One thing* that will be nice lovet/ox, would be to be able to change that blue color that is default for selecting menus, and other things. I think that comes from your desktop environment.

dryan, that is your theme

> also its still impossible to hide that pane except in mobile mode i think ihhhhh

Gajim does usually not fuck around with themes

my selection is orange, because thats the way in ubuntu

> Gajim does usually not fuck around with themes

Well, my Gajim theme does not fuck around with the Ubuntu one, or any other. It is general.

> I think that comes from your desktop environment. Yea. It is true. I didn't know. It would be nice if it didn't come from there 😂️. Thank you every one for your time and everything.

im sure your desktop lets you change the color

you can also modify it only for gajim, but you have to learn css

there is a gajim.css on your system, where you could try to change the selection color

thank you.

/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/gajim/data/style/gajim.css

Do you know the entry name? I see that the selection menu, and the number of unread messages in chat and the box where I type it is surrounded by that blue.

I mean, don't bother. I'am not to thinker with this too. To much waste of a time for no better functionality or security. I like it the way it looks right now.

I don't have time for uselessness. You don't have either. 😅️

But I wished gajim wasn't dependet on the color of the desktop. I wished it was it's own thing.

then you need to use Windows :D

Linux Desktops want to kind of force all applications to have a similar style

but from a developer point, this of course makes sense, why would a million developers need to think about selection color again for every app

> but from a developer point, this of course makes sense, why would a million developers need to think about selection color again for every app Cuz it is another app, another icon with different coulours, etc. I imagine Conversations, green icon, etc. And I open the and it is a combination of green and some pink, because the rest of my phone has pink theme..

lovetox: When I send a message, it is scrolling me to the bottom of the conversation. Wasn't a problem if I could click the quote and go back up. But I can't. Is there a way to disable the 'go to bottom when you send a message'?

currently not

here's an example of how a message is sent in xmpp https://conference.gajim.org:5281/pastebin/3e242d42-54e4-4b25-9786-e15869527eb5

... ehh.

Is there another way to do it, was the question?

In <body>should e an ecrypted omemo message</body>, but is there a way to encrypted the whole thing?

what is the best way to kill gajim when its UI becomes unresponsive?

de-facto: os? windows/unix?

linux

pkill gajim

gnome shell

idk if that works, "pidof gajim" is empty

I know.

But works. Belive me.

try it.

indeed works

it always does some weird things, like beeping with its bell audio for minutes while becoming unresponsive

can its audio be disabled completely?

In case it does not work, you could run kill -9 $( ps auxcf | awk '/gajim$/ { print $2 }' )

> can its audio be disabled completely? CTRL+P -> notifications -> play sound: off

thanks disabled it, hope it will stay silent

> In <body>should e an ecrypted omemo message</body>, but is there a way to encrypted the whole thing? I'm pretty sure the answer is no. The xmpp stanzas have to be read by the server to deal with the message.

> idk if that works, "pidof gajim" is empty pidof must be looking for gajim as the first word of the command `pgrep -a gajim` outputs: 1234 /usr/bin/python3 /usr/bin/gajim

> I'm pretty sure the answer is no. The xmpp stanzas have to be read by the server to deal with the message. someone told me this: there is. It is the new version of OMEMO, called OMEMO:2 But most of the popular clients don't support it yet. And it's not a priority for them at the moment. The clients that do support OMEMO:2 do not support old OMEMO. (because the only library that implemented omemo2 doesn't implement old omemo)

I'm not familiar with it, interesting if true

I'm not anticipating a day that clients will upgrade omemo

maybe a few newer projects will adopt it