Gajim - 2019-02-01


  1. tom you realize wayland only works on Linux, and isn't network transparent right? Also it breaks compatibility with virtually every UNIX software written in decades?
  2. debacle tom, while Gnome 3 is build on GTK3, the latter can be used without any Gnome software. It's just the new version GTK. I use Gajim on XFCE4, which is also written with GTK3, AFAIK.
  3. tom not release 4.12
  4. oli But xfce is hell
  5. tom Is Gajim really deciding to go in the web-like fad and trendy development style rather than the stable release development model?
  6. Link Mauve tom, Wayland only requires shared memory and a UNIX pipe, I’ve even seen people use it over a browser.
  7. tom I need to know, because if it is I need to ask how difficult exactly this would be for fork and maintain
  8. Link Mauve It requires shared memory, so it isn’t network transparent indeed, the same way modern X11 isn’t.
  9. Link Mauve Or anything using a GPU isn’t.
  10. tom I've already had to fork programs for reasons similar to this, like sflphone
  11. Link Mauve It hasn’t broken any compatibility with my existing software AFAIK, I can still run Xwayland for the odd software which still requires X11.
  12. debacle tom, I use xfce 4.12.5 and it seems to use GTK3 not GTK2
  13. tom because I rely on software like this and can't have it chaning to whatever the latest trendy framework or software is every time something brand new comes along without very good reasoning
  14. hannibal Only parts of xfce have been ported to gtk3
  15. oli Now tom has to fork xfce too
  16. Link Mauve tom, you can continue to use Gajim 0.16, if you are not afraid of security issues or bugs that will never be fixed.
  17. debacle hannibal, when I try to "apt remove libgtk2", the only program that still depends on it, is firefox :-)
  18. tom that's what I'm saying. I will fix Gajim 0.16's bugs and standard compliance issues
  19. Link Mauve Oh right, you’re still running an old Firefox, the newer ones only depend on gtk3.
  20. grumpy tom: Honestly, what are the issues for you switching use gtk3?
  21. grumpy s/use/to/
  22. tom complete UI design failure, lack of consistency, lack of control, bloated frameworks making maintainability hell, forced animations, and lack of good reasoning for this change to even happen
  23. Link Mauve Oh well, someone is wrong on the internet.
  24. Link Mauve I’ll just move on.
  25. grumpy :)
  26. Link Mauve Good luck with your fight against windmills.
  27. grumpy I didn't plan to fight, I just was curious.
  28. hannibal debacle: gtk3 is targeted for xfce 4.14, see https://blog.alteroot.org/articles/2017-05-30/road-to-xfce-4.14-part-2.html
  29. Link Mauve grumpy, I was only talking to tom, not to you, don’t worry. :p
  30. tom Link Mauve, I do not appreciate your immaturity in the matter
  31. debacle hannibal, OK, maybe I don't have everything from XFCE installed and luckily only the components, that are already ported :)
  32. Link Mauve tom, if you ever want to talk about it in good faith, I’ll be happy to answer you. :)
  33. tom I can understand if most of what someone uses a computer for is browsing the web or watching youtube software stability, maturity, maintainability, and security may not be as important. But If you rely on computers to get your work done. If You rely on computer aided design or rely on a industrial machine to keep working, and be easily fixable if it doesn't lest it cost you downtime than these ideals are extremely important
  34. oli https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png
  35. tom when these ideals are this important much more effort and attention needs to go into deciding if certain changes are indeed a sane and good decision to do, that won't bite you in the ass years later
  36. pep. tom, software evolves, get over it? tbh I'm not going to try and convince you, you're wasting your time not mine
  37. tom I'm asking if I were to backport security fixes and features into Gajim 0.16, would it be possible to do so by incrementing the minor and patch version levels?
  38. pep. If you're not happy with GTK's API, I would suggest actually reporting it to them
  39. pep. Maybe they can do better for the next versions
  40. debacle tom, I sympathize with your aim for long term stability of APIs and think, that the web style of development with a new framework every second day is not useful. But Gajim does not have this style of development. E.g. GTK3 is in Debian since 2010. If you do not like the change from GTK2 to GTK3, talk to the GTK authors.
  41. grumpy tom: I can understand that you want your machine keep working. Everybody wants that. On the other hand, I agree to what pep. just said. Everything is evolving, hopefully.
  42. Link Mauve GTK+ is actually a pretty easy project to contribute to, if you know C.
  43. Link Mauve The decisions made are also done in the open, you can chime in on the mailing list if the direction doesn’t suit you.
  44. grumpy tom: Therefore. What about putting your effort in fixing the issues you see in GTK3 rather than porting everything you use back to GTK2? Just a suggestion.
  45. tom gtk3 authors are non responsive, and the Debian decision to include gtk3, among other things like certain init systems was such a controversial decision that longtime Debian developers and maintainers resigned from the project and created Devuan
  46. debacle I don't remember any controversy about the inclusion of GTK3 in Debian.
  47. debacle OK, going to sleep. I have a meeting in 8:40 hours :)
  48. pep. debacle, ugh, true :(
  49. tom grumpy, because gtk3 is growing in a direction a disagree strongly with. for lack of better term, SmartPhoneItis. where they are deliberately oversimplifying their user interfaces to cator to computer-illiterates at the expense of power users and developers
  50. debacle pep. See you soon!
  51. pep. :)
  52. Link Mauve Right, sleep, then meeting.
  53. tom you can see this in the extensive use of hamburger buttons, having to click the buried menus, and 'share' buttons
  54. Link Mauve tom, did you see any hamburger button, buried menus or 'share' buttons in Gajim?
  55. hannibal Maybe one more thing to keep in mind gajim 0.16 uses python 2
  56. tom yes
  57. Link Mauve hannibal, no but python2 is more stable, he can fix bugs by himself once it gets EOL.
  58. pep. No ABI/API changes
  59. tom the chat windows in gajim 1.x has a hamburger button on the bottom right that replaced an action bar
  60. debacle Link Mauve, there is a hamburger button right of the text entering field.
  61. tom now you have to dig through menus with lots of clicking to access things that used to be 1 click away
  62. Link Mauve Oh, I should try Gajim someday.
  63. debacle There you can find "manage room" etc.
  64. Link Mauve Try to actually use it I mean. :-°
  65. tom also buttons with text labels being replaced with pictures and symbols
  66. tom like gears
  67. tom and three lines
  68. tom these are ambiguous
  69. grumpy tom: I cannot see anything bad in making computer interfaces easier for people and lowering the entry barrier. I for myself might use twm if i need to. But actually I realized beeing quiete with interfaces using less clutter.
  70. tom you could make the argument to just learn what they mean, but My response to that is we should not be bending to the will of our software, our software should serve us
  71. grumpy s/quiete/happy/
  72. pep. tom, "our" software?
  73. pep. Whose is that
  74. pep. The one Asterix and lovetox, and other contributors make for you?
  75. tom grumpy, is it bad when doing that comes at the cost of ruining software for everyone else
  76. grumpy And who is the others? And why are we devided. That's not good. :)
  77. tom powerusers and programmers versus computer illiterates and smartphone users
  78. pep. Anyway, that was a fun read. Good night
  79. tom Vim users versus Microsoft Office users
  80. tom http://suckless.org/philosophy/
  81. tom >ost hackers actually don't care much about code quality. Thus, if they get something working which seems to solve a problem, they stick with it. If this kind of software development is applied to the same source code throughout its entire life-cycle, we're left with large amounts of code, a totally screwed code structure, and a flawed system design. This is because of a lack of conceptual clarity and integrity in the development process.
  82. tom >Our philosophy is about keeping things simple, minimal and usable. We believe this should become the mainstream philosophy in the IT sector. Unfortunately, the tendency for complex, error-prone and slow software seems to be prevalent in the present-day software industry. We intend to prove the opposite with our software projects.
  83. grumpy I'm a poweruser, a programmer, in some areas an illiterate, AND I use a smartphone. What now?
  84. tom >Our project focuses on advanced and experienced computer users. In contrast with the usual proprietary software world or many mainstream open source projects that focus more on average and non-technical end users, we think that experienced users are mostly ignored. This is particularly true for user interfaces, such as graphical environments on desktop computers, on mobile devices, and in so-called Web applications.
  85. tom this one really hits the ball
  86. grumpy I don't see that easier userinterfaces are hindering power users in any way.
  87. grumpy And believe me or not, I also was ranting against gnome3 at gthe beginning, sticking with openbox.
  88. debacle tom, why don't you just use mcabber instead of Gajim?
  89. Link Mauve I don’t find gnome3 minimal enough for my taste.
  90. grumpy At one day I tried it and I realized me ranting and ranting over it again.
  91. Link Mauve They have too many visual things that are driving me away from what really matters, the terminal emulator.
  92. Link Mauve Like, bars.
  93. pep. I agree with this ^
  94. grumpy Then I just thought. Okay, i really need to give it a try. To throw away the old habits. Just for a week.
  95. grumpy And the result. I'm sorry, but I'm still running gnome and I love it.
  96. tom i'm not a defeatist
  97. grumpy Same with systemday. It makes my live at work easier every day, since i now can focus on other things.
  98. tom let
  99. tom let's try to stick on topic with Gajim and gtk here
  100. grumpy s/systemday/systemd/ (of course)
  101. tom Because that's an entire discussion of it's own
  102. grumpy tom: Ok I agree.
  103. debacle mcabber is not bad, it even has vi style key bindings.
  104. tom Because I love Gajim's 0.16 interface for using XMPP
  105. debacle I see
  106. grumpy Yeah. mcabber is nice. Unfortunately it hasn't OMEMO yet.
  107. tom I never said the terminal was the absolute best way to interact for everything. although I would agree most things are probably better served by a TUI
  108. tom and yeah, OMEMO is pretty important
  109. debacle good night then, see (some of) you at 10:00
  110. grumpy poezio maybe?
  111. grumpy greetings to brussel. :)
  112. mathieui grumpy, pep. has a work in progress that can decrypt and encrypt omemo messages in poezio
  113. mathieui there are still a few roadblocks
  114. tom If I backported features and security fixes to Gajim 0.16, would they be accepted and Gajim could just increment Minor and patch level versions?
  115. grumpy mathieui‎: Thanks. I'll try it at next opportunity.
  116. grumpy tom‎: I also will leave now. I still suggest, just to give these "new" technologies a try. Maybe you find something in it you like and which is not so bad as you expected? :)
  117. grumpy n8
  118. tom I already have
  119. tom I've currently got switching a webserver from a systemd based system to an Open-RC one in my queue list.
  120. tom there is nothing these technologies provide that can't be done better on existing or other better designed alternatives
  121. grumpy > tom‎: I've currently got switching a webserver from a systemd based system to an Open-RC one in my queue list. Ehhm... I meant the opposite. :D However..
  122. grumpy > tom‎: there is nothing these technologies provide that can't be done better on existing or other better designed alternatives For me there is though.
  123. grumpy Cheers.
  124. mrDoctorWho Traceback (most recent call last): File "/home/mrdoctorwho/Gajim/lib/python3.6/site-packages/nbxmpp-0.9.90.4-py3.6.egg/nbxmpp/dispatcher_nb.py", line 601, in dispatch File "/home/mrdoctorwho/Gajim/gajim/common/modules/util.py", line 60, in func_wrapper func(self, _con, _stanza, properties) File "/home/mrdoctorwho/Gajim/gajim/common/modules/user_mood.py", line 50, in _mood_received if data.mood is not None: AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'mood'
  125. asterix mrDoctorWho: you updates python-nbxmpp?
  126. mrDoctorWho asterix, yes I did
  127. spicewiesel for some time now, I guess since the last update, my gajim-remote gives a line "Found default language: en", which breaks my scripts. Is this coming from gajim-remote?
  128. jjrh where does gajim set the plugin repo?
  129. jjrh for various reasons I had to build my primary gajim from source and I guess the plugin repo isn't configured.
  130. lovetox spicewiesel, its a print statement for debug, cant you just deal with it?
  131. lovetox jjrh gajim uses .local/share/gajim/plugins
  132. spicewiesel I could, of course. But why do I get it while I am not debugging
  133. jjrh lovetox, isn't there a pulling mechanism from some central repo for updates?
  134. lovetox you mean on the server?
  135. lovetox you need the plugin-installer plugin
  136. lovetox https://ftp.gajim.org/
  137. lovetox you have to use plugins from the correct version folder
  138. jjrh ah lemme see if this works.
  139. jjrh yep - that did the trick thanks
  140. lovetox spicewiesel i see that this is not pretty for the gajim-remote use case
  141. lovetox i will think how to solve this
  142. spicewiesel lovetox: thanks
  143. lovetox but btw we want to remove gajim-remote so it would be good if you could write into this ticket what commands of gajim remote you use
  144. lovetox https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/8609
  145. lovetox so we can integrate them into gajim
  146. spicewiesel ah okay, that would sad for me and my colleagues in the company
  147. spicewiesel we use it to set status/messages based on location network
  148. lovetox we dont want to remove the functionallity, but we dont want you to start another application "gajim remote" for it
  149. spicewiesel that's fine
  150. lovetox you can already issue commands directly to the gajim executable
  151. spicewiesel okay, I'll check that and update the script
  152. lovetox but gajim doesnt have ALL the commands gajim remote has
  153. lovetox so please write into the ticket all the commands you use
  154. lovetox so we can add missing ones
  155. spicewiesel okay, I'll do that
  156. lovetox but nevertheless i will remove that print statement in the next bug fix version
  157. spicewiesel lovetox: https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/8609#note_191990
  158. spicewiesel okay that way?
  159. lovetox yes thanks for the info
  160. spicewiesel cool, thank you, too
  161. lovetox tom, i think you underrate the work it takes to backport some features, its not just about python2 and 3 api, Gajim 1.0 is in big parts not even close to Gajim 0.16 codebase wise, it was not a fast port from 0.16 -> 1.0 where only API calls where changed. Gajim 1.0 was in many parts completely rewritten
  162. lovetox that beeing said, im currently the most active maintainer of Gajim and i dont have time or desire to review any patches for 0.16, as i dont want to spend time on software i will never use. So i would recommend forking the project if it is important to you. You can also ask Asterix about his opinion about the matter
  163. bot Philipp Hörist pushed 1 commit to branch _refs/heads/master_ of _gajim_ < https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim >: *0b6fac44* < https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/commit/0b6fac44dc4775e667ac8d956df2295c8b0766d2 > Dont fail on malformed pubsub events
  164. lovetox thanks mrDoctorWho should be fixed
  165. pod how can i import omemo keys into gajim manually?
  166. lovetox you cant
  167. lovetox the question would also be, how do you get a omemo key, is there some export function in another application?
  168. pod probably not, but i have problems with multiple clients - if i send myself an encrypted message from gajim to my mobile it works, the other way around does not. so apparently there are keys missing on one device and since i can scan the qr code with my mobile i am guessing gajim is missing some keys
  169. bot Philipp Hörist pushed 1 commit to branch _refs/heads/master_ of _gajim_ < https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim >: *18c422d8* < https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/commit/18c422d843a60bccf6dcc43ba3a9e9561002b1c5 > Move print for debug message
  170. lovetox no its exactly the opposite
  171. lovetox you need the key of the contact to encrypt messages
  172. lovetox so if you can successful send a message from gajim to your mobile this means gajim has the key of the mobile
  173. lovetox as you can see if you open the fingerprint window
  174. lovetox there is the fingerprint, which should be shown on your mobile
  175. lovetox and also your gajim fingerprint, and this should also be shown on your mobile
  176. pod true, gajim has the key, on conversations side i can only see 4 keys and the gajim one is not there
  177. lovetox if this is all true and it still doesnt work, you can start gajim with -v and look at the debug console if you receive a message
  178. lovetox yeah then the problem is quite clear
  179. lovetox you can try to logout of your account on conversations
  180. lovetox and relogin
  181. lovetox this maybe triggers getting the keys again
  182. lovetox afterwards try to send a message from conversations which should check for missing keys
  183. pod sadly no
  184. pod and scanning the qr code does not add the key either
  185. lovetox nope thats not possible
  186. lovetox the qr code is not the key, its just a condensed form of it
  187. lovetox i guess you can look up how to get conversations into debug mode
  188. lovetox maybe you can find the problem
  189. pod i will check that out thanks
  190. sol How does one hide join/part messages (especially if that person has been inactive for a while)?
  191. lovetox depends on your gajim version
  192. lovetox but for example in the bookmarks window
  193. lovetox if you want to set it per groupchat
  194. lovetox in Gajim 1.1
  195. bot Philipp Hörist pushed 1 commit to branch _refs/heads/master_ of _python-nbxmpp_ < https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/python-nbxmpp >: *b1cb29c0* < https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/python-nbxmpp/commit/b1cb29c0f415234f42971e722d639cc2ff409939 > Add UserTune (XEP-0118) module
  196. bot the-solipsist created an issue in _gajim_ < https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/9567 >: #9567: < MAM Error (KeyError: 'discuss@conference.conversejs.org') >
  197. bot Philipp Hörist closed an issue in _gajim_ < https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/9567 >: #9567: < MAM Error (KeyError: 'discuss@conference.conversejs.org') >
  198. sol lovetox: sol: conversejs.org is running Prosody version hg:91856829f18b on Linux
  199. sol (Not Openfire)
  200. lovetox is this your issue?
  201. bot Philipp Hörist modified an issue in _gajim_ < https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/9567 >: #9567: < MAM Error (KeyError: 'discuss@conference.conversejs.org') >
  202. bot Daniel Brötzmann modified an issue in _gajim_ < https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/9567 >: #9567: < MAM Error (KeyError: 'discuss@conference.conversejs.org') >
  203. wurstsalat lovetox, the license header of your commits states © 2018, is this intended?
  204. lovetox no wurstsalat thanks
  205. lovetox .
  206. lovetox Arsen could you restart your client
  207. lovetox you seem to spam us with presences here