Gajim - 2016-08-28

  1. linus Yeah I don't think gtk2 understands hidpi
  2. zak Morning. @lovetox, are you there? I would like to try your modification for sending OMEMO messages to Pidgin now. I downloaded the, where do I have to put it? (linux)
  3. lovetox hi
  4. lovetox delete it
  5. zak ?
  6. lovetox new version of omemo with tha integrated is pushed today
  7. zak oh cool
  8. lovetox i write you when its on the server
  9. zak Great thanks.
  10. ciblia What is the point in making me verify that changed LE fingerprint is correct every few months while Gajim could use ca-certificates to decide it is correct without bothering me. I mean this window and average person is just going to say "Kyllä" ("Yes" in Finnish). I don't know how I should have checked manually that the certificate is correct, but just to see if the certificate was invalid, I checked it with Chrome. Sorry if this is a stupid question and I should just toggle something in ACE, but I believe this is a design flaw and the prompt should at least tell "This certificate is valid: yes" or "This certificate is valdid: no" like Claws Mail does. And referring to Claws Mail makes me think I have complained about this every few months since I started using Gajim...
  11. ciblia not a paste, but whatever you want
  12. lovetox ciblia
  13. lovetox you are right, and this is fixed since a few months
  14. lovetox but only in nightly
  15. lovetox so use nightly :)
  16. ciblia -.- I will just complain again in two months forgetting this
  17. zak Let's just wait for the next stable Gajim version :)
  18. ciblia What would be the ETA for it?
  19. ciblia no, that was actually a stupid question, when it's ready.
  20. lovetox maintainer is as good as never online
  21. lovetox so it could be a long time
  22. lovetox its not that nightly isnt stable
  23. lovetox its just that no one can do a new version, because no one has acces to the server
  24. zak I hope the frequency how often he is online is not saying anything about this.
  25. lovetox i would use nightly, many bugs have been fixed
  26. ciblia for me it's preference to let pacman keep my system up-to-date instead of having to remember everything I have installed by myself and remembering to keep it up-to-date and wthout known security issues
  27. ciblia :(
  28. linus We could always make a friendly fork and make releases from there until we hear from Asterix
  29. linus Although I think the default branch isn't quite release-ready yet
  30. lovetox there should be a final python2 release anway
  31. zak I don't think things should be rushed. Maybe someone can ask the maintainer someday what his plans are.
  32. lovetox believe me the one thing that not happens here, is rushing things :D
  33. zak hmm
  34. zak @lovetox: Does your name come from the messenger Tox?
  35. lovetox yeah haha
  36. lovetox the story is, i searched for an encrypted desktop client
  37. lovetox then i saw tox
  38. lovetox didnt have a github acc, and made this one
  39. lovetox but after 1 week i realized that tox is not really the best option
  40. lovetox but i stuck to the name :)
  41. zak okay :) was just wondering
  42. lovetox so i dont really love it :D
  43. zak Tox seems promising, but I don't think it is that good idea to start again with something new.
  44. zak Trying an alternative to WhatsApp is hard as it is. Now there are just so many isolated different solutions...
  45. zak If all those different isolated solutions would use XMPP that would be something
  46. linus Then they wouldn't be isolated :p
  47. SouL lovetox, then, now you can be called lovexmpp! :D
  48. lovetox yeah :)
  49. zak or lovejabber :) short: lovejab :-D
  50. graphiclunarkid Is there a way to edit or delete existing bookmarks for an account in Gajim 0.16.5 on Ubuntu 16.04? I can't find one despite extensive googling, RTFMing and experimentation. What did I miss?!
  51. graphiclunarkid (MUC bookmarks, I mean).
  52. lovetox in the menu
  53. lovetox actions -> join groupchat
  54. lovetox -> saved groupchats?
  55. lovetox i hope its called that in english
  56. lovetox graphiclunarkid
  57. graphiclunarkid lovetox, thanks! The "join groupchat" menu option does nothing though :(
  58. lovetox ah its broken in ubuntu 16.04
  59. lovetox there should be a submenu
  60. graphiclunarkid Oh, right.
  61. lovetox its probably because of the unity integration
  62. lovetox is there a way to start gajim without that
  63. lovetox i try to find out how to solve this
  64. graphiclunarkid lovetox, I appreciate that, thanks. I'm looking too.
  65. lovetox what did you use before?
  66. lovetox or did you install gajim for the first time just now
  67. graphiclunarkid lovetox, I was using Pidgin before. I installed gajim yesterday to test out the omemo support.
  68. lovetox how did you join a group chat?
  69. graphiclunarkid lovetox: right-click on an account in the roster -> join group chat -> join group chat
  70. lovetox ah k, yeah unfortunate the menu is only needed for bookmarks and the xml console
  71. lovetox if find out whats wrong i could fix it in nightly
  72. graphiclunarkid lovetox: happy to do some testing at this end if that'd help.
  73. arune graphiclunarkid:
  74. zak Is this a problem of Ubuntu or Gajim?
  75. graphiclunarkid arune, that looks promising...
  76. Link Mauve zak, Ubuntu.
  77. graphiclunarkid arcade: That works for me! Thanks :)
  78. lovetox so how to solve this
  79. lovetox i dont see where gajim does something wrong here
  80. Link Mauve lovetox, it’s not, it’s to Ubuntu to fix their stuff.
  81. Link Mauve Using a sub-menu is perfectly fine.
  82. lovetox yeah but this exists since ubuntu 13
  83. lovetox how do other programmers solve this who use gtk and python
  84. graphiclunarkid Yeah, submenus work in other Ubuntu programs using the global menu.
  85. Link Mauve lovetox, I don’t think this is in any way specific to Python.
  86. Link Mauve Maybe try if gtk2 has the same issue.
  87. Link Mauve gtk3* sorry.
  88. lovetox hm i will
  89. linus I just realised, I didn't fix jingle file sending, did I?
  90. linus Does anyone even use it?
  91. linus Oh well
  92. linus Well, I fixed it.
  93. linus It's still broken though :D
  94. linus In the sense that if the contact doesn't support Jingle FT it only complains to the log.
  95. linus I think Jingle File Transfer should just be removed from gajim
  96. linus or at least offloaded to a plugin
  97. zak Couldn't in this case just a message be written to inform the user that the other contact does not support JFT?
  98. linus it could
  99. linus you're welcome to implement it ;)
  100. zak If I only could :-(
  101. zak I thought you were working at the code anyway
  102. linus lovetox,
  103. linus zak, I'd do it but I don't see much value in having JFT at all. HTTP upload is better in most ways and I don't see any use cases, at least for myself, for JFT.
  104. linus Sure, it's an option when your server doesn't support HTTP Upload
  105. linus but you could also switch to a better server :)
  106. zak Unfortunately it is not so easy switching the server just like that.
  107. zak But apart from that I don't think something that works (almost) fine, should be removed.
  108. linus yes it is, as long as you don't insist on running your own
  109. zak What about the contacts in my roster?
  110. linus it should at least be moved into a plugin, because it's not core XMPP functionality and because it's a maintenance burden
  111. Link Mauve linus, err, that’s some pretty bad reasoning, would you also move MUC support into a plugin? :/
  112. linus Why not? :)
  113. linus Not as eagerly, because it's a much more useful featuer
  114. Link Mauve Because having a client you can’t use before installing a ton of plugins isn’t really useful.
  115. Link Mauve I’d argue that being able to send files is a much more useful feature.
  116. Link Mauve To some users.
  117. Link Mauve Most of the people I know don’t use MUC at all, they only communicate privately with me.
  118. linus That's what HTTP upload is for
  119. linus and plugins can be enabled by default, no?
  120. Link Mauve That one is much worse than JingleFT though, it doesn’t do any negociation for example.
  121. linus (in principle at least, not sure about it being that way in practice)
  122. Link Mauve It also requires to first upload a file to then download it, taking twice as long as sending it directly.
  123. linus What sort of negotiation?
  124. zak Is there a specific reason, why a functionality is better off in a plugin?
  125. Link Mauve zak, if it wouldn’t be accepted in core, I guess.
  126. linus So it can be enabled/disabled
  127. Link Mauve linus, stuff like the file format, image size, bitrate/compression, stuff like that.
  128. linus ah right
  129. linus is that implemented in practice?
  130. zak Why should Jingle FT be disabled? If one doesn't want to use it, he/she just doesn't use it.
  131. Link Mauve Yeah, in Gajim features are usually exposed only if the recipient advertise support for it.
  132. linus because it's not a good implementation of it
  133. linus Particularly, it has poor UI. I wanted to test it and thought it was buggy because nothing was happening.
  134. linus Only when I increased the log level and looked at the console I saw that it was because the recipient didn't support JFT
  135. Link Mauve If it’s in the default branch, I think it’s a known bug.
  136. Link Mauve This is something that should definitely be fixed before the release.
  137. zak I think the work invested in removing the code and put in into a plugin should instead be invested in fixing the problem.
  138. linus And I think that if it's one of the things preventing the release and nobody wants to fix it, it's better to cut the feature than to wait for someone to come along and fix it
  139. Link Mauve linus, fix the rest, if it’s still a bother by then then it may be a good idea. :)
  140. linus I'm all for supporting it in principle, but in practice, A. it's not a great implementation and B. apparently it's not useful enough to anyone who can fix it to fix it
  141. linus It would also be nice to provide a more consistent API for plugins so they don't have to make so many assumptions about the implementation details of the core :/
  142. linus Anyway
  143. linus I'm not getting anything done by talking here. I'll go get something done :)
  144. Link Mauve Some things that once were core have been made plugins already, for example LaTeX support.
  145. zak Someday I need to work myself into some coding again.
  146. zak For some things I think it's better, if they at least get installed/activated automatically when Gajim is installed. Otherwise, one is always dependend that for the thing you want to do your contact has the corresponding plugin installed and activated.
  147. zak And the common user ("my mom") doesn't want to be bothered with messages like "oh I want to send you a file, could you please install and activate the plugin...?"
  148. linus Of course
  149. zak But I agree, if the code is really that bad, something should be done about it
  150. arune Httpupload should be included by default and jingle should be dropped
  151. linus I haven't looked at the code that much yet because there's so much of it. Which is also a bad sign :p
  152. linus arune, my sentiments exactly
  153. linus Well, no, I don't think jingle should be dropped entirely
  154. arune But maybe gajim should be forked, one version for the people living in the past and the forked one for new xmpp users
  155. Zash Hrrrr
  156. linus let's not be so hostile!
  157. arune Conversations/Daniel does it very good, only implement the really needed stuff and fend of the old thinking that keeps request features like online status just because it's usually there in a jabber client
  158. zak Do I understand correctly, that with HTTP file upload, the file is first uploaded to the jabber server, and then can be downloaded by the contact?
  159. Zash Pretty much
  160. zak Then I guess there surely is a file size limitation.
  161. zak The jabber servers are not to be used as dropbox replacement or something like that, are they?
  162. arune Jingle file transfer is really bad in a user experience perspective
  163. Link Mauve zak, Prosody’s default is 1 MiB, at JabberFR we put it to 10 MiB and got nearly DoS’d by it.
  164. Link Mauve arune, in which way?
  165. zak My point. Because in this case, I think Jingle FT is really the option, if I want to send a bigger file to someone.
  166. Link Mauve arune, the XEP is still not in a draft standard state, so you can and should send your feedback to standards@.
  167. Link Mauve I really want to specify a bittorrent transfer method, to fix one of the biggest JingleFT shortcomings when you want to share a single big file with more than one person.
  168. linus arune, it is, but it has its advantages for particular use cases. JFT is good for large files, files that only need to be accessed once, files that you don't trust your XMPP server with...
  169. linus Link Mauve, that would be great
  170. zak BT would still not solve my usecase, where I have to transfer one bigger file one time to one contact.
  171. Zash arune: The problem isn't Jingle, it's the one-time direct p2p initialization bit.
  172. linus Zash, isn't that what Jingle is for? :)
  173. Link Mauve linus, not really, no.
  174. Link Mauve You have at least five transport methods currently defined.
  175. Link Mauve One of them being an HTTP transport, which can be used alongside HTTP Upload.
  176. arune Zash: also history and muc usercase
  177. Link Mauve
  178. arune Zash: and multi-client, but that may be what you meant
  179. Zash arune: What you want is the bit where you send a reference to the file and allowing multiple transfers. That could be done with Jingle too. Tobias was working on a XEP for this.
  180. Zash Which is pretty much how HTTP uploa
  181. Zash Which is pretty much how HTTP upload is done now, but in a non-semantic way
  182. arune Zash: so the file is transferred to the server with jingle and then each download can happen with jingle?
  183. Zash arune: "Jingle" doesn't transfer anything, it's for negotiating the terms of the transfer.
  184. Zash arune: I think the idea was to send a description of the file and then the transfer negotiation would be separate and potentially between other parties.
  185. Zash HTTP URLs has the file description all mixed up in the details of how to fetch it
  186. linus
  187. linus tmolitor, ^
  188. linus This bug's been sitting around for quite a while now. I also have a suggestion 5: remove XEP-0224. Let the arguments begin!
  189. lovetox hm can you send me such an /attention
  190. lovetox i never saw it
  191. lovetox so limit this to once every 20 seconds or something like that
  192. zak Couldn't a user as well flood a Gajim user with standard text messages?
  193. linus Yeah
  194. Zash You probably want some server-side limits as well here
  195. zak So what's the point then preventing flooding with /attention?
  196. zak I think there should be some generic mechanism preventing flooding of any kind
  197. Zash It would be sensible to only react to one attention message, until the user gives focus to the chat again
  198. Zash Not that this is a feature I care deeply about.
  199. tmolitor linus: 0.16 or default branch?
  200. linus tmolitor: default
  201. tmolitor okay :)
  202. linus Thanks!
  203. tmolitor imported and pushed :)
  204. zak I don't think only permitting one single attention is the way here. There might be sensible reasons to "attention" someone after some time again, when he maybe is listening/reacting again.
  205. zak But of course it is not an important feature
  206. linus Thanks tmolitor
  207. tmolitor linus: you're welcome
  208. lovetox i would say a config value
  209. lovetox default 30 seconds
  210. lovetox would be the easy way :)
  211. arune Would it make sense to have a "close" menu item for a muc tab (for when clicking right mouse button)?
  212. arune (or maybe "leave")
  213. lovetox do you that often close/leave groupchats?
  214. lovetox whats the idea behind that, because the X on the tab is not practical?
  215. linus I think it would make sense, simply because it's another operation that can be performed on the tab
  216. linus regardless of there being another way to do it
  217. linus redundancy in UIs can be good
  218. lovetox ah you mean when clicking on the tab
  219. lovetox i thought clicking just anywhere into the room
  220. lovetox yeah i think it would not hurt anyone to have this option there
  221. lovetox though leaving is not the same as closing
  222. linus that might also be what arune meant, but that's not what I interpreted :)
  223. linus It is for now
  224. lovetox if you hit the x, and have the setting to only minimze on close, it willk just minimze
  225. lovetox so i would acutally think a real "Leave" option would be kind of good there
  226. lovetox because otherwise you would have to close
  227. lovetox then go to the roster and click there leave
  228. linus oh there is a setting for that
  229. lovetox yeah right in the icon bar
  230. lovetox under the settings icon
  231. lovetox this should be made default also in my opinion
  232. linus icon bar..?
  233. lovetox in the chat window
  234. lovetox settings icon
  235. linus oh right
  236. linus that one.
  237. linus where does the room go when minimised?
  238. linus oh I see
  239. arune lovetox: there's an option for minimizing muc when clicking on the X, so when that option is enabled, how do you leave a muc?
  240. lovetox muc goes to roster like a contact
  241. lovetox if it is minimzied
  242. lovetox there right click, and disconnect
  243. lovetox actually a disconnect option in the contextmenu of the tab would make sense
  244. arune Aha, so first minimze then select so leave...
  245. arune I'm thinking about changing the default to minimze for the X
  246. linus +1
  247. lovetox yeah i think that would be good
  248. lovetox and if this would be the default, a context menu entry for disconnect on the tab would make sense
  249. kimsehic3 Where does Gajim get minimized on Ubuntu?
  250. arune Exacly
  251. lovetox kimsehic3: i think if you click the X on gajim
  252. lovetox you are fucked, because gajim goes into nirvana
  253. lovetox you have to click the minimize button, then it goes to the launcher
  254. lovetox if we are talking about unity
  255. kimsehic3 Yes unity
  256. arune Hmm, icons in gajim, like file transfer icon, are they from gtk theme? Or custom?
  257. lovetox gtk
  258. lovetox but you can choose other icon sets in the setting
  259. lovetox but they are worse
  260. arune They feels a bit dated ☺
  261. arune (even in gtk3 if I remember correctly.)
  262. linus why does trying to clone fail with "abort: error: [SSL: CERTIFICATE_VERIFY_FAILED] certificate verify failed (_ssl.c:581)" even though the cert is fine in the browser?
  263. lovetox if you try another 3 times it works
  264. lovetox sometimes it works sometimes not
  265. lovetox weird thing
  266. linus huh ok
  267. admin set the topic to ..
  268. bot RSS: Feeds for Gajim Plugins • Changeset [908:a40bef42a250]: OMEMO GTK3 inital OMEMO GTK3 inital
  269. Zash linus: Works here, what version of Mercurial are you on, and which version of Python?
  270. Zash linus: Looks like SNI is required, it serves a cert without, which could give that error.