Gajim - 2016-08-08


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  9. wafed The children of a bitch
  10. wafed The children of a bitch Mossad *FUCK*
  11. bot RSS: Feeds for Gajim • Changeset [16087:4cf1ee5092a7]: Some sensible default values to give users more privacy and less annoyance Some sensible default values to give users more privacy and less annoyance https://trac.gajim.org/changeset/4cf1ee5092a78c534661d0c4d75ae753e43c54d3
  12. arune 👌👌👌
  13. Link Mauve tmolitor, erm, that’s a pretty bad change, it’s very useful to know who enters or leaves a MUC. :/
  14. Link Mauve Also removing end to end encryption???
  15. tmolitor no I deactivated the autonegotiation, not esessions as a whole...
  16. Link Mauve Exactly.
  17. Link Mauve Now, how many users will be bothered to click on the shield?
  18. mathieui Link Mauve, well, esessions is pretty bad crypto-wise, isn’t it?
  19. tmolitor and for the average user it is very annoying to have join/leaves in every gc...especially in big mucs like this one...
  20. Link Mauve mathieui, I never studied that spec, so I don’t know. :/
  21. mathieui I mean, you’re the guy who wrote an anti-otr plugin
  22. Link Mauve mathieui, OTR isn’t esessions.
  23. mathieui I know
  24. tmolitor omemo should be the one to use...not esessions...and as far as I heard esessions isn't relly save either...
  25. Link Mauve I wouldn’t use it, but I don’t understand the reasonning behing disabling it by default altogether.
  26. Link Mauve tmolitor, OMEMO is a plugin, you have to go through hoops to enable it in Gajim, while esessions has been available in core for years.
  27. tmolitor because the autonegotiation makes mam and carbons useless and is very hard to turn off for average users...
  28. tmolitor the default branch will ship some plugins installed by default (omemo will be one of them)...
  29. Link Mauve So better no encryption than encryption that annoys your particular usecase, I don’t think that’s a good way to design a communication software. :/
  30. arune Link Mauve: esessions messes up multi device usecase
  31. Link Mauve arune, I know.
  32. Link Mauve But how many users are using multiple devices?
  33. tmolitor most users today...
  34. arune It's sane defaults no not mess up multi device
  35. arune It's sane defaults not mess up multi device
  36. tmolitor and most users don't even know how to configure gajim...I want to make gajim useful for the average user that just wants to install a software and use it and doesn't want to mess with ACE dialogs and so on...
  37. tmolitor if you are a power user its not hard for you to enable all things you want and configure gajim exactly as you need...but the target audience of gajim shouldn't be "power users" but "ordinary users"...
  38. Link Mauve tmolitor, I am the operator of a service where 32 people (out of 752 sessions) are using more than one resource right now.
  39. Link Mauve I wouldn’t call that “most users”.
  40. Link Mauve Once again, I think your glasses are tainted by your own situation.
  41. tmolitor Link Mauve, most users for you...but your users don't even use httpupload...they seem stuck in the last century (progress wise)...
  42. tmolitor and even if not by now...I'm certain that in the future a multi device scenario will be more common...
  43. tmolitor and third: there won't be "no encryption at all" but omemo will be enabled by default...
  44. Link Mauve I don’t see where HTTP Upload comes from in that discussion.
  45. Link Mauve I guess it’s just that most people are not using the things you consider important to you.
  46. tmolitor http upload, message carbons, mam etc. are all relatively new features...message carbons being the oldest of this list...
  47. tmolitor if your clients used conversations, the would also use http upload (as it is the default in conversations)...
  48. tmolitor so your users don't seem to use modern clients (at least not mobile modern clients)...
  49. Link Mauve These people are not clients of mine, we just host them.
  50. tmolitor that seems in line with the "no multi device usage"...
  51. Link Mauve Maybe because this client is less popular than you might think?
  52. mathieui Link Mauve, I think there’s a prosody module for getting client versions
  53. mathieui maybe we could make stats
  54. Link Mauve mathieui, oh, that’d be an interesting statistic!
  55. Link Mauve Yeah, exactly. :)
  56. tmolitor Link Mauve, for france this might be true, in germany it seems to be the most popular client...
  57. tmolitor that's why (at least for germany) there are far more multi device scenarios...
  58. Link Mauve How many big deployments have you surveyed before making that statement?
  59. tmolitor but all this discussion is needles...omemo will take the place of the esession autonegotiation...
  60. Link Mauve I’m not saying it’s false, I just doubt you can make any such statement by just hanging around in XMPP circles.
  61. lovetox so whats the argument? you are saying there are a lot of people who want to use stanza encrypting? or we should make a survey for every setting that is changed to find out?
  62. tmolitor non of my own...but I trust daniel with his experiences...
  63. lovetox we could go after people searching help, where the answer is, turn of stanza encrypting
  64. mathieui well, conversations.im is not exactly an impartial source for getting conversations usage stats
  65. Link Mauve Also, OMEMO is a serious regression for privacy compared to esessions, it doesn’t encrypt anything but message/body.
  66. tmolitor no, not his own xmpp service...only the experience he gathered when deleoping conversations...
  67. tmolitor but at least omemo won't break multi device...
  68. mathieui Link Mauve, but esessions doesn’t have any PFS
  69. lovetox it would only be a regression if both could do the same thing
  70. mathieui (iirc)
  71. Link Mauve mathieui, indeed, that’s a trade-off.
  72. Link Mauve lovetox, “the same thing”?
  73. mathieui Link Mauve, lovetox means that it’s indeed a tradeoff
  74. Link Mauve Ah.
  75. tmolitor the esession xep is staut: deferred
  76. mathieui i.e. you can’t say it’s a pure regression as both do different things
  77. lovetox you could say online communication is a regression to privacy, but hey you cant whisper someone your information into his ear when he is 12000 km away from you
  78. Link Mauve tmolitor, the OMEMO XEP’s status is non-existent, not even proposed. :p
  79. mathieui still a protoxep ?
  80. Link Mauve While even a typo change would suffice to bring esession back to experimental.
  81. Link Mauve mathieui, yeah.
  82. tmolitor what clients other than gajim support esessions?
  83. mathieui none, iirc :)
  84. Link Mauve It’s the only one I know of.
  85. Link Mauve The specification is quite complicated, I wouldn’t even try to implement it myself.
  86. lovetox Link Mauve this seems like a discussion because you have too much time :D
  87. lovetox you wouldnt use it
  88. lovetox you wouldnt implement it
  89. Link Mauve lovetox, no, because bad defaults for everyone is bad.
  90. lovetox but you fight for the people
  91. lovetox who maybe use it
  92. Link Mauve Yes.
  93. mathieui lovetox, he’s the hero we need
  94. Link Mauve :D
  95. mathieui Link Mauve, could you publish your unfinished 0070 implementation and the others tonight? I want to take a stab at it
  96. Link Mauve Yep.
  97. mathieui (now that I’m not in vacation anymore, I want to do stuff)
  98. Link Mauve (Please remind me.)
  99. Link Mauve mathieui, actually it already was up to date: https://git.linkmauve.fr/slixmpp.git branch xep_0070.
  100. mathieui oh, ok
  101. Link Mauve Not ready for consumption anyway.
  102. Link Mauve IIRC the main issue was that I don’t understand the api object and how it’s meant to be used/replaced.
  103. Asterix wow ... Changing default values of Gajim is a big change, so I'd like to be contacted about that before it's done.
  104. Asterix And I don't agree with all those changes
  105. Asterix in fact I may agree with only 1, eventualy 3 changes out of 9
  106. lovetox i dont know what ft proxies does, sounds for connecting and disconnecting in times of mobile phones is really not useful anymore, its just triggerin every few minutes cause the phones connect and reconnect in an instant
  107. lovetox and autonegotiate esessions is often the cause for problems with other xeps
  108. kalkin lovetox: if you are talking about File Transfer Proxy it's for NAT. Or did I misunderstood you?
  109. Link Mauve lovetox, it’s a proxy for file transfer, it makes a fallback in case you can’t connect directly to your contact.
  110. Link Mauve In the case of NAT, yeah, for example.
  111. kalkin lovetox: There were times when we didn't have the http upload XEP
  112. lovetox ah thx
  113. lovetox and print joins and leaves in mucs, could maybe get a more prominent place in the preference menu if not deactivated at start
  114. lovetox people search for it, but i think they shy away from the ACE
  115. lovetox if they even find it
  116. kalkin lovetox: +1
  117. bot kalkin: You can't change karma!
  118. kalkin lol
  119. lovetox haha
  120. kalkin Generally i think ACE is a bad bad idea
  121. ciblia Could Gajim show some indication of the message getting to MAM or something instead of showing red X of the recepient not receiving the message?
  122. kalkin You don't need ACE if you have a properly thought through UI and use cases
  123. lovetox its needed because gajim has SO MUCH OPTIONS
  124. kalkin See Conversations
  125. lovetox you dont want to implement a check box for each
  126. kalkin lovetox: Well then you have to reduce the amount of ACE options really needed
  127. kalkin than make them just config options
  128. Link Mauve ciblia, that’s a Prosody issue, not a Gajim one.
  129. Link Mauve Displaying the error the server sent is the best thing Gajim can do.
  130. kalkin then make them just config options
  131. ciblia I see
  132. Asterix for printing status in chat / muc, yes an GUI option could be added 'cause it's somtimes requested.
  133. Asterix for proxies, I don't see why it hurts, it's used only when sending a file (or receiving if using jingle FT)
  134. Asterix for e2e, disab;ing it is not the best thing to do if there are problems with other encryption method.
  135. Asterix Having a out of the box way to encrypt chat is way better than nothing
  136. Asterix and no omemo won't be available by default, except if you're the packager in all distributions ...
  137. kalkin Asterix: @status chat / muc. I would go the way conversation went and just disable it
  138. Asterix I wouldn't
  139. kalkin Asterix: Why? What kind of information do joins/leave provide you?
  140. Link Mauve kalkin, whether someone joined or left.
  141. Asterix I like to have them enabled for example. And the number of request to disable it is very small compared to the number of Gajim users
  142. kalkin Or how do you use this information
  143. kalkin Link Mauve: see ↑
  144. Asterix except if you know your contact list and are able to compare it yourself at any time, you don't know when someone joins the room
  145. Link Mauve kalkin, I generally talk to people when they are here, so if I see they aren’t I will leave them a message for later.
  146. kalkin Link Mauve, Asterix: I just use tab for that. I don't even look at the list of online people. Having MUC History or MAM also solves the irc problem of only talking if the person is joined currently
  147. Link Mauve kalkin, the day Gajim switches to MIX it might be useful to have that discussion, not today.
  148. Asterix you can't open a tob with a person not in the room
  149. kalkin The only reason for me to look at joins/leaves is in rare cases is Asterix, but even then I don't activate join/leave cause they spam a lot
  150. kalkin Asterix: no I mean if i can't use <TAB>-Key for completing the persons nick, he isn't there
  151. Link Mauve kalkin, if your issue is with spamming, you could implement a grouping of join/parts like in Swift for example.
  152. Asterix kalkin, so I'm happy to know when he joins ...
  153. Asterix a grouping could be nice, yes
  154. kalkin Asterix: I see
  155. kalkin How does grouping work? Are there any screenshots?
  156. Asterix I have to leave for now, BBL
  157. SouL +1 please
  158. Link Mauve You could also tell people to start using Stream Management, clients devs to implement it, server operators to enable it.
  159. Link Mauve kalkin, I saw one once, just ask a Swift user.
  160. kalkin Link Mauve: I thought Stream Managment is already a thing which is used widely, because of Conversations?
  161. Link Mauve kalkin, again, Conversations isn’t a very popular client currently.
  162. SouL wtf
  163. Link Mauve I see way more people using Xabber for example.
  164. kalkin May be I'm biased
  165. SouL Really? WoW
  166. SouL I thought the opposite.
  167. kalkin Or may be it's more a german phenomen
  168. linus yeah I had the impression that conversations is more popular too
  169. Link Mauve And there are many other clients that can be used on bad networks, like Pidgin, which is hugely popular.
  170. SouL I'm the only one that uses a desktop client, all of my friends using XMPP use Conversations so...
  171. kalkin At least in Germany if some one uses XMPP they are using Conversations
  172. Link Mauve Is gmx.de still the biggest XMPP provider in Germany, btw? Maybe ask them if they have some statistics, I’m pretty curious.
  173. kalkin Didn't inputmice and some other folks wanted to define some best practices for servers, containing which important XEPs a modern server should support
  174. Link Mauve kalkin, this one? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0375.html
  175. Link Mauve It’s mostly SamWhited only.
  176. kalkin Link Mauve: depends on your definition of biggest XMPP provider. GMX ( also web.de and some others who belong to same concern) were mail providers who created for each email account also xmpp account, but I've never met some gmx use who knew that XMPP or this service even exists. People who use XMPP mostly don't use gmx.de
  177. kalkin also (I'm may be wrong) but i thought gmx, web.de and some others deactivated xmpp a few years ago
  178. Link Mauve In the same way Google users didn’t know they were using XMPP? :)
  179. Link Mauve Oh, too bad.
  180. kalkin no, in the way like: I check once a week my gmx mail and not intersted in internet
  181. kalkin Link Mauve: they don't even know there is a chat service afaik
  182. kalkin Also IMHO gmx.de is used by old people and people who don't understand the internet. In the later case this people just use facebook and/or whatsapp
  183. kalkin Every one who thinks he understand the internet, just has a Gmail account
  184. kalkin Link Mauv: yeah i think this is the xep i thought off
  185. kalkin Link Mauv: yeah i think this is the xep i thought of
  186. Link Mauve Heh, times change, back in the days when I first went to Germany, everyone my age (14~16) was at gmx.de.
  187. kalkin Link Mauve: It was probably before Gmail boom
  188. Link Mauve So I guess you could ask Google for their statistics about non-Hangouts clients.
  189. arune Statistics isn't even relevant if we want xmpp to be relevant, we want to move forward, not stand still
  190. Link Mauve arune, breaking the workflow of your users isn’t moving forward, sorry.
  191. arune Changing default settings is not breaking workflow
  192. arune Changing settings to sane defaults is to not scare new users away
  193. Link Mauve In which way are those settings sane…?
  194. arune New uses won't find the advanced config editor, new users won't probably even look at the settings
  195. SouL About what settings are you guys talking about?
  196. arune We use gajim at work, maybe 60 ppl, we have the possibility to have our own default config, so some of the settings tmolitor changed are from our "user study"
  197. arune SouL: https://trac.gajim.org/changeset/4cf1ee5092a78c534661d0c4d75ae753e43c54d3
  198. arune essessions doesn't even work multi-client where all clients are gajim, am I right?
  199. SouL Thank you arune :)
  200. lovetox Asterix
  201. lovetox could you fix the https certificat on hg.gajim.org?
  202. lovetox it always gives an error i have to use http for cloning
  203. Asterix arune, no, it's resource to resource
  204. Asterix lovetox, it seems correct to me
  205. lovetox now it works..
  206. lovetox its from time to time
  207. arune Ipv4 vs ipv6 issue?
  208. lovetox i dont think so its from the one minute to the next
  209. lovetox strange
  210. lovetox arune
  211. lovetox why do you dont do custom builds for the people
  212. lovetox with configs already set up
  213. lovetox i could show you how you can build gajim for windows
  214. arune https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=hg.gajim.org
  215. arune lovetox: yes please, I once looked at the dev how to on the wiki but it looked complicated 😬
  216. arune We also make some windows hacks so that the gajim tray icon isn't hidden by windows
  217. arune If the tray icon is hidden and the user has "closed" gajim, there's no way he can see he has new messages
  218. arune We also install a few plugins
  219. Asterix why would the tray icon be hidden?
  220. arune And ask the user for his username/password (or maybe we get the username from some environment variable)
  221. arune Asterix: since win 7 windows tries to hide all non approved tray icons
  222. arune Because there was an overflow of tray icons
  223. arune http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/293-notification-area-icons-hide-show-system-icons-notifications.html
  224. Asterix arune, I don't see where an icon disapear
  225. arune Asterix: it's not always visible, it's hidden in the overflow area or whatever it's called
  226. arune https://account.jabber.at/media/http_upload/4uCkU6nrnKE8EKfHgAb5oPgDqB5w0MPV/6be15bdf-e3a3-4050-a64a-e930e046d84e.jpg
  227. Asterix ha yes ok
  228. Asterix and how do you do to have it always visible? change registery at installation?
  229. arune So the blinking icon won't be visible until the user clicks to view the overflow area
  230. arune Asterix: we run some exe which hacks the registry