Gajim - 2014-11-11


  1. bot RSS: Feeds for Gajim • dpkg_python.log attached to Ticket #7883 https://trac.gajim.org/attachment/ticket/7883/dpkg_python.log
  2. bot RSS: Feeds for Gajim • Ticket #7883 (Error message in Gajim) updated about 1) and what does this tell me? What should i do? about 2) python-openssl is installed. attached the output of "dpkg -l | grep -i python" https://trac.gajim.org/ticket/7883#comment:3
  3. Asterix about MAM. it is used if server supports it, but there is no way to disable it. Does it worth an ACE option?
  4. Link Mauve I don’t think so, it’s only used to retrieve more history, right?
  5. Link Mauve At connection or at history viewing?
  6. Asterix at connection
  7. Link Mauve I don’t think it’s worth it.
  8. Asterix that what I think too. Users won't see ny change, all is done in the background
  9. Holger BTW (did I ask this before?): Why are Carbons disabled by default?
  10. Zash Took a *long* time to retrieve all my history when I tried it
  11. Zash ~2 years or somesuch
  12. Zash (of history)
  13. Asterix yes, first time we retrieve all history for nearly 2 years
  14. Asterix but a few server has mam enabled currently
  15. Asterix latest released prosody doesn't support it
  16. Asterix I don't know for ejabberd
  17. Holger No support yet in ejabberd.
  18. vorner On the other hand, if there is any kind of server-side logging, it makes sense to migrate all that history.
  19. Asterix they probably have a plugin for latest release
  20. Asterix ho ok
  21. Asterix so no server supports it except prosody from repository
  22. Holger MongooseIM does.
  23. Asterix vorner: that makes sens yes. you talk about the old archiving module?
  24. vorner I talk about all those adhoc homemade modules that some servers have. Or that old one from ejabberd.
  25. Holger Asterix: May I bug you with my question: Wouldn't Carbons enabled by default turn the world into a better place with very little effort?
  26. vorner My oldest history is from 2012-08-04 and I'll want to migrate it to whatever will be used. I currently have only web interface.
  27. Asterix for carbons, indeed it's very hidden
  28. Holger Yeah I'm a bit tired of explaining that to the noobs I've recommended Gajim to. And I don't see the reason for disabling Carbons by default.
  29. Asterix but activating it is a bit against current xmpp behaviour. If I'm connected twice, I handle my priority so that messages go where I am, and I don't want to re-read then when I go to the other machine ...
  30. Asterix so for me (and my way of using XMPP), activating it is not a good thing
  31. Asterix but I understand of course that ppl could want to use it by default of course
  32. Asterix a GUI option would be better
  33. Link Mauve Asterix, most people are oblivious to the priority system.
  34. Link Mauve Which is pretty bad, imo.
  35. Holger Ah, okay. In my book, the idea of having normal(tm) people make use of priorities has failed. But at least I understand where you're coming from, then.
  36. Asterix if I have a xmpp client runnin on my phone, and I am at home on my computer or at work, I don't want to receive my messages on my phone for sure
  37. Holger I do, I just don't want to get notified by my phone.
  38. Holger But either way, in my experience, priorities just don't work in practice, except for (some of) those who are really into the protocol.
  39. Holger And those will have an easier time disabling Carbons support than my friends have with enabling it :-)
  40. Asterix it's the power of XMPP, everyone can do what he want with this protocole. But that means I don't want to use carbons. Of course I'm big enough to disable it in Gajim if it's enabled by default. But if every client enables carbons, then why not configure the server to forward message to every client by default
  41. Holger But I agree that a GUI option would already help quite a bit.
  42. Asterix in accounts window, in General tab?
  43. NUF because carbons is a 2way solution :)
  44. bot RSS: Feeds for Gajim • Changeset [15558:02813e917bf3]: make e2e work with py3 make e2e work with py3 https://trac.gajim.org/changeset/02813e917bf3de6fe3e9f2786cf73cf596441b73
  45. Asterix "receive messages sent to other resources"?
  46. Holger Asterix: Because clients must be prepared to handle outgoing messages from other resources.
  47. Holger Asterix: Otherwise, I'd enable it by default on the server, yes.
  48. Zash Asterix: You describe the old way of using XMPP. The new way is everything everywhere always
  49. NUF its interesting problem, which i encoutered already too
  50. NUF i like carbons, because i dont like inconsistent chat logs
  51. NUF but after talkin at pc i have to click away al notifications on mobile
  52. NUF so a "already read" message to the other ressources would be great, if it would be included in carbon specification
  53. Asterix Zash: my phone battery can't handle that correctly, so no I want to receive messages on my phone only if I'm not connected from somewhere else. And no I don't want to read my conversation I had at work when I come back at home
  54. Zash Asterix: Neither do I. But users do apparently.
  55. Asterix NUF: for logs problem, there is MAM
  56. Holger Asterix: Strictly speaking, "receive messages sent from/to other resources", but that might be more confusing.
  57. Asterix Zash: so I'm old :(
  58. NUF thats right, but gajim is the only client supporting it ^^
  59. Zash NUF: supporting what?
  60. NUF message archive management
  61. NUF its a server side history
  62. Asterix Holger: "Receive conversations from other resources"?
  63. Holger Asterix: You know XMPP, just as Zash. In my experience, users weren't able to handle priorities in the old times (before Carbons were invented) either.
  64. NUF "syncing active conversations with other ressources" maybe
  65. Zash NUF: Gajim doesn't have it yet. And there are other clients, but mostly web clients with MAM support.
  66. Holger Asterix: Sounds very good to me.
  67. NUF i agree with Holger
  68. NUF yes Zash its not in the stable version ;)
  69. NUF im already looking for clients over one year... some are supporting only the old xep-136
  70. Holger I make some use of priorities myself. But I've completely given up on the idea that they might be useful for non-XMPP people.
  71. Zash And FWIW, I do know what MAM is, I helped write a part of the spec.
  72. Zash And wrote a bunch of implementations
  73. NUF oh, nice :)
  74. Link Mauve Btw, how does negative presence interact with carbons?
  75. Zash Link Mauve: At least with the prosody implementation, you'll get carbons.
  76. Zash Link Mauve: You do if you are unavailable too :)
  77. Link Mauve Oh, that’s great!
  78. Holger (ejabberd will of course send carbons to resources with negative presence too, FWIW.)
  79. Zash The only time you don't get carbons is when you get a directed message, but you'll receive that anyways :)
  80. NUF Zash: does mam directly sent a new log entry to all ressources when it appear?
  81. Zash NUF: No
  82. NUF or when it will "sync" ?
  83. Zash There's no subscription or notification in MAM
  84. Zash It doesn't
  85. NUF ok
  86. bot RSS: Feeds for Gajim • Changeset [15[…] https://trac.gajim.org/changeset/83e8b2dc4e93f3b287fa4e8f2c36a418f2d1c911 • Changeset [15[…] https://trac.gajim.org/changeset/7a0141cf56a7ab05f4291ce8f54d3261b3b12bd1 • Ticket #7364 (Support for XEP-0313) close[…] https://trac.gajim.org/ticket/7364#comment:41
  87. NUF that would mean, that - without carbons- i have inconsistent chat log until i relog
  88. Holger Zash: And you won't get copies of "normal" messages (why are carbons restricted to "chat" messages?) ...
  89. Zash Holger: I don't know. Why must I change the core routing code if carbons is enabled?
  90. Zash Holger: I think the prosody implementation will carbon "normal" messages too
  91. Zash And carbon bare-jid messages that you won't get, which was against the spec :/
  92. Holger Ah, ok. Makes sense to me, but somehow the XEP authors thought otherwise ...
  93. Holger Yeah, that I do, too, on purpose. We talked about that, IIRC.
  94. Zash I still think what we do is nicer.
  95. Zash Would complicate the code to do otherwise imo
  96. Holger Yeah, I didn't quite get the reasoning for why we shouldn't do it that way. And I don't think it'll break anything, so I'd probably stick to that behaviour, too.
  97. Asterix for the GUI option, I should add "(if server supports it)". And is it obvious that it's carbons for those who know what it is?
  98. Asterix "Receive conversation from other resources (if server supports it)"
  99. Zash Something like that sounds good I think
  100. NUF btw asterix, will it be active by default than?
  101. Asterix That's another point ...
  102. Asterix That would be nice to be able to ask a Yes/No question to all Gajim users ...
  103. NUF i would prefer this, because this is better for user friendlyness
  104. NUF longtime
  105. NUF is it possible to see, if somebody just updated gajim version and not install it new?
  106. NUF than you can make a question pop up
  107. NUF or only set it on, for new installations and off for updates
  108. bot RSS: Feeds for Gajim • Changeset [15561:04dca3223c2a]: Add GUI option for message carbons Add GUI option for message carbons https://trac.gajim.org/changeset/04dca3223c2ae7cde55d721f4a5b2175bad67511
  109. Holger Ah, too late :-)
  110. Holger was going to suggest "Request carbon copies" instead.
  111. Holger But that text sounds good to me, too.
  112. Asterix it's not too late
  113. Asterix activating it by default (when creating a new account) is something else than having a GUI option
  114. Asterix ha for HUI
  115. Asterix GUI
  116. Asterix ok
  117. Holger The term "request" might let you omit the "server support" thing.
  118. Asterix but is it obvious what "carbon copies" are for none-advanced users
  119. Asterix not really, one can say "hey I requested carbons, but they don't arrive!"
  120. NUF not really, because in the GUI you can deactivate it... i just think, deactivating is usefull only for people, who understand the priority system, for others its just confusing, to send something by mobile but done receive an answer, because pc is online
  121. Holger Asterix: Ok, I'm convinced :-) Just stick to your text, it's nice.
  122. Holger Asterix: Thanks a lot for that option.
  123. NUF another topic: i know its terrible question, but somebody know a usable windows 8 mobile client? ^^
  124. NUF yes i know... "usable" and "windows 8" sounds strange in one sentence ^^
  125. Asterix carbons activated by default ...
  126. NUF thanks Asterix :)
  127. Holger Merci.
  128. bot RSS: Feeds for Gajim • Changeset [15562:a4e0dc06996f]: enable carbons by default for newly created accounts enable carbons by default for newly created accounts https://trac.gajim.org/changeset/a4e0dc06996f1a22dacabc6760a87fdfd4b2ed23
  129. Asterix https://wiki.gnome.org/PyGObject/InitializerDeprecations Does this mean that subclassing a Gtk.Dialog is deprecated?
  130. bot RSS: Feeds for Gajim • Changeset [15563:a631e38063b4]: remove all icons for all menus remove all icons for all menus https://trac.gajim.org/changeset/a631e38063b451f69fd6143f6bb6ef8b602be661