Gajim - 2013-11-22


  1. Ge0rG does anyone remember in which version the carbon stanza nesting was fixed?
  2. Ge0rG https://trac.gajim.org/ticket/7093 seems to be the issue, with milestone 0.15, but a user with 0.15.1 is having trouble
  3. henk hey, I just tried sending a "group message". It seems no one received it, even though I did not get an error. And I have no idea how to get the messages text back. Please tell me something of that is my fault. If it isn’t that’s one of the worst user experiences I have ever had with a program, and yes: I have been using MS products.
  4. henk Has anyone successfully used the "group message" feature yet?
  5. vorner I think I did, but something like 6 years ago, so I can't claim I know it works now.
  6. henk /-:
  7. henk No wonder "normal" people don’t use jabber when all jabber clients suck and it’s hard to find the one which sucks the least ):
  8. henk vorner, Do you happen to know if the text sent with a group message is saved somewhere?
  9. Ge0rG is a group message something different from a MUC?
  10. henk Ge0rG, I have my contacts grouped (like family, coworkers, irc, …) and right click on the group gives the option to "send group message"
  11. henk so: yes.
  12. Ge0rG ok, I just tested it. gajim is just sending a regular private message to all of the contacts listed.
  13. henk Ge0rG, Yes, did your contacts receive it?
  14. Ge0rG henk: yes
  15. Ge0rG basically it is the same as opening a chat to every of them, copy&paste the message and close it again.
  16. henk 'sigh' great … Here it seems none did, I did not get an error, and the message (which was rather long) seems gone for me to write again.
  17. Ge0rG yeah, gone it is.
  18. henk I don’t know what went wrong here, but I’d expect at least to be notified by gajim that what I just did did not do what I think it did!
  19. henk AARRRR, I’m becoming really aggressive when programs behave like that. I mean what do the programmers think when they write that shit?
  20. Ge0rG dunno. for me it worked.
  21. Ge0rG I better won't say which client I am working on. It's got its own issues
  22. vorner henk: I can assure you that whenever gajim receives an error message, it shows it. And maybe the message got stored to history of each of the contacts?
  23. vorner It might be that the server killed your connection if it thought you a spammer (and therefore not notified you).
  24. henk vorner, No, it’s not stored. Of course not, why would it, that would actually be HELPFUL and USERFRIENDLY!
  25. henk And simply showing errors when you get them is not sensible behaviour for a program per se …
  26. henk sure, it’s a start, but it’s not that big of an achievement now, is it?
  27. vorner henk: What I mean is, if gajim did not show any errors, it means it was not notified something went wrong and it is fault of something else. I know servers sometime kill too large messages or if you send too many messages.
  28. henk "it was not notified something went wrong"? How about "I don’t know if it worked because I did not receive an ACK, so I’m going to show at least a warning"? No? Does that make too much sense?
  29. Ge0rG henk: you seem to be an experienced UX designer. what about submitting a patch?
  30. vorner henk: Do you know the other end sends ACKs? They are not mandatory feature.
  31. henk Ge0rG, trust me: if I was capable of writing a patch, I’d not do that but rather write my own client. I see enough stupid people everywhere to not want to work with about 99.999% of this planets population.
  32. vorner henk: Congratulations, you'd make another even more crappy client. Many tried. Many failed.
  33. henk vorner, No, I don’t know that, but if it’s known that ACKs are not mandatory, it’s really FSCKING STUPID to just throw the users message away assuming everything went fine!
  34. henk vorner, I doubt it’d be much worse than any of the clients that are already there and at least I can only blame myself then.
  35. vorner You're right about the last point.
  36. vorner And you're not throwing it away. It's like email. The server is supposed to tell you if it fails. If the server is configured to prevent spam by silently dropping it, then it's the server's policy.
  37. vorner According to you, you sent bunch of really long messages at once. Which is why a server might have considered you a spammer.
  38. Ge0rG henk: you really should put your hands where your mouth is.
  39. Ge0rG I am not even a Gajim developer, and I get the point that the UI for group messages is imperfect.
  40. Ge0rG but for the rest of what you claim... learn python! make it better!
  41. henk vorner, No, in email the server tells you the result, which may be "it failed" but may also be "it succeeded". Is the latter not the case for xmpp?
  42. Ge0rG henk: no.
  43. Ge0rG XMPP is fire and forget.
  44. henk oh god …
  45. Ge0rG there are some optional extensions to improve that, but they don't guarantee that a message is not discarded by a server/client
  46. vorner Actually, the server tells you it accepted your message. Which is nothing about if it was really delivered to the final destination.
  47. henk stupid wherever I look …
  48. vorner XMPP uses long-living TCP connection. If the connection continues to work, the message must have been accepted by the next server.
  49. henk uhm, great, two contradicting statements about a fact …
  50. vorner But with email, you get bounce if it doesn't work, from whatever server the error is generated on
  51. vorner The same is true with XMPP.
  52. vorner You just don't get the explicit „I accepted your message“. It is implicit from the fact how TCP works.
  53. Darlan >And I have no idea how to get the messages text back. henk, do you mean that you can not see the message sent in history?
  54. henk Darlan, yes
  55. Darlan This bug is fixed for 0.16 release.
  56. henk this is 0.16-beta1
  57. Ge0rG vorner: there is nothing in the server telling the client a message was accepted
  58. Darlan #7207
  59. bot Darlan: http://trac.gajim.org/ticket/7207 (Gajim won't log a Single Message that was sent to a contact not in Roster)
  60. Darlan is checking when version 0.16-beta1 was released.
  61. henk 0.16-beta1-2a0673b623a6
  62. Darlan [Gajim-Announce] Gajim-0.16-beta1 <https://lists.gajim.org/pipermail/announce/2013-August/000037.html> (August 29th, 2013).
  63. henk And that bug does not quite seem related to my problem: all intended recipients are in my roster.
  64. Darlan On Windows or Linux?
  65. henk linux
  66. Darlan >and yes: I have been using MS products What did you mean by it?
  67. henk Darlan, Nothing. Attempt at sarcasm.
  68. Darlan ok
  69. Darlan I do not know what the problem may be, then.
  70. Darlan https://trac.gajim.org/changeset/2a0673b623a6 (date 11/18/13) was made after ticket #7207 was closed.
  71. henk ok thanks for the reactions everyone. I’ll just accept that jabber is still too young to be actually be usable and reliable yet …
  72. henk I checked: my jabberserver does not drop or reject or ratelimit messages btw
  73. Ge0rG henk: yeah, maybe you should use icq, which is matured by now.
  74. henk Ge0rG, oh, it is finally decentralized, open sourced, and supports tls encrypted connections? Did not know that …
  75. Ge0rG henk: you can also go and make your own IM protocol. with blackjack! and hookers!
  76. Ge0rG henk: but designing IM protocols is hard. really hard.
  77. mathieui Ge0rG, and JSON!
  78. Ge0rG mathieui: yeah, JSON instead of XML.
  79. henk Ge0rG, Seems so …
  80. Ge0rG henk: you know, it is easy to be smarter than the creators of XMPP in a chat room.
  81. arcade yaml
  82. henk Ge0rG, That sounds like you don’t like criticism, even if it’s not directed at you at all?
  83. Ge0rG henk: oh, I like to blame XMPP for its fallacies as well.
  84. Ge0rG henk: my point is: you can read up on how XMPP does the things it does, or you can make your own IM protocol which is much better and which nobody uses.
  85. Ge0rG henk: just coming here and blaming XMPP for not being what you expected it to be is... strange
  86. Ge0rG henk: you can even contribute to the XMPP standard.
  87. Ge0rG henk: as a first step, you should mandate a server-generated ID for every message created by a local client. that ID would be sent in a reply to the client, ensuring both are in sync.
  88. Ge0rG henk: this was the easy part. now make sure this also works when the client is currently not connected to the server.
  89. henk Yeah, and I think it's great that I can. I just won’t be able to anytime soon. And I didn’t _just_ come here to blame xmpp for not being what I expected it to be. That’s only how it worked out in the end, among other things I said and realized.
  90. Ge0rG henk: ok, as of gajim: you should open a ticket and demand that group messages are stored in the individual chat logs
  91. Darlan Yes, please create a ticket.
  92. henk Is that possible without creating an account?
  93. hoody_k nope
  94. henk too bad ):
  95. Darlan henk, write a description and I will create a ticket for you. And I want your email address so I will be able to subscribe you to ticket updates.
  96. Darlan Also, I did not understand what is the problem with group messaging.
  97. Link Mauve henk, it is possible, just use openid.
  98. Ge0rG Darlan: the first problem is, when you send a group message, the message content vanished without any user feedback
  99. Ge0rG Darlan: the second problem is, henk sent a rather large group message and it did not arrive at any of the contacts
  100. Link Mauve I’ve heard Empathy displays the sent message in another color until it has been received, to give the user an immediate feedback.
  101. Ge0rG Link Mauve: I also like that approach better. provide the user with visual feedback about the status of the message
  102. Ge0rG yaxim displays a green checkmark when an ACK comes in
  103. Link Mauve Ge0rG, note that the server could very well modify your message.
  104. Link Mauve Or change its order of appearance.
  105. Link Mauve Or even send another message on your behalf.
  106. Ge0rG Link Mauve: but the client only can notice that in MUCs, right?
  107. bot RSS: Feeds for Gajim Plugins • Changeset [662:b3fec59f5cb6]: Clients icons. fix caps_disco_received Clients icons. fix caps_disco_received https://trac-plugins.gajim.org/changeset/b3fec59f5cb6d6199db6531ae100ec5b969df46e
  108. bot RSS: Feeds for Gajim • Ticket #7569 (verification of OpenPGP signed presence stanza is failing) created Bug description The signed presence stanza (xep-0027) can use multiple hash algorithms, because OpenPGP supports multiple hash algorithms. But Gajim supports only single hash algorithm for signed presence stanza, SHA-1 . this is hardcodded in src/common/gpg.py It's already recommended for users to migrate from SHA-1 to SHA-2 hash algorithm. ​http://www.[…] https://trac.gajim.org/ticket/7569